The perennial Navy vs AF flight school smackdown (split from the "What %" article)

[FlyBoyd]

I don't know if data exists that says Primary or UPT does a better job of producing pilots... I seriously doubt that good data is available because the programs are so different and because the needs are so different for each service.

Post #327

Up until 1995 E-6 guys went through VT-31. Once the Navy switched from the C-130 to the E-6 they assumed the AF would make a better teacher with the reasoning that the AF flies heavies and teaches the type of flying E-6s do all the time. It made since at the time. Now that those first T-1 guys are COs/XOs, the T-44C has Proline 21 avionics (glass) and with the testimony of the civilian RAG IPs who have seen both advanced training products, E-6 guys are back at VT-31. I read the point paper that started the whole switch back. Bottom line summary...AF made very capable instrument pilots...USN made pilots that were much closer to being a heavy AC (PIC). Other main points were basic airwork during asymmetric situations and overall HW/SA during various situations including emergencies/system degradations.

I did not post this to restart the AF bashing but merely to point out why E-6 guys are back in USN advanced training.

 

[nittany03]

Perpetual newb to newb: Otto, you're beginning to irritate heavy hitters, and I'm not talking about AW stature, I'm talking fleet experience. Go to receive only. Trust me. When you mention that your filter evaporates on the Web, that's a bug, not a feature. Work on it, don't brag about it.

 

[HackerF15E]

Post #327

Up until 1995 E-6 guys went through VT-31. Once the Navy switched from the C-130 to the E-6 they assumed the AF would make a better teacher with the reasoning that the AF flies heavies and teaches the type of flying E-6s do all the time. It made since at the time. Now that those first T-1 guys ...

I stopped reading after "T-1". Nothing more needed to be said and the point would have been made.

 

[HackerF15E]

Not at all. If someone is off parameters or acting other than what they said they'd do, I call them on it. Never had to yell. I call them on it, and they correct it. If it ever came to it, I'd take controls, even to the point of yelling at them to get the point across.

YOUR point was that the IP was yelling at you SIMPLY to get you to yell back. That's not something we do.... or at least I do.

Not to pile on here, but...are you an IP?

I say this because you seem to have some pretty strong ideas about what effective instruction is and is not. If you are a Primary IP, and this is your opinion as an instructor, then they're certainly points that warrant discussion.

Realize that experiencing flying training as a student, and your personal reaction to different instructional styles, doesn't make you an instructor (or even able to instruct). No more than watching Top Gun makes you a Naval Aviator. In both cases, there is a Grand Canyon's difference between the two.

Just wondering.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

This thread has it all! It started as a "what percentage get jets" then it got some anti jet hate, then AF vs Navy, then poor Otto getting tag teamed

 

[phrogpilot73]

This thread has it all! It started as a "what percentage get jets" then it got some anti jet hate, then AF vs Navy, then poor Otto getting tag teamed

He brought it upon himself.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

He brought it upon himself.

No doubt sir, but it still hurts to watch

 

[A4sForever]

Not to pile on here, but...are you an IP?....

Nope, Otto's not an 'IP' ... but I wish we'd had him back in the 'PI' ... as w/his 'talents' & ₱50 we would have rocked his world and made him a 'man' in the 'PO ... assuming he didn't put the girl to sleep, first ...

 

[statesman]

Words

I reread what I wrote and wanted to word things a little different...

The long and short of it is that as an organization we should be looking for the BEST ways to get 'X's (refer to diagram below) into the hole that is the flight students gord in the most efficient manner while minimizing 'X's burned up in the resulting helmet fire. That is to say that if an X represents knowledge (systems, maneuvers, monkey skills, EPs, ability to do all of the above under stress), and it gets into the hole (flight students melon) then we call that a success, and we want to find ways to achieve success in the most efficient (cost, time, etc) ways possible...

Maybe yelling them into place is the best way, but as I understand it we are trying to train pilots to perform under the stress of combat not to teach people how to fly while someone is yelling at them... And screaming is one method to simulate that stress but there are probably more effective (efficient) was to simulate that stress...

 

[Pags]

Otto, you missed his point. No screaming is not an instructional technique. It's a function of that particular IP's comfort level. If he's yelling, he's probably very uncomfortable. It will happen because we are all human, including instructors. As a student or young co-pilot, you need to be able to filter out the human aspect. If things are too hot at that time, shut your mouth take what you are given, and if you need clarification re-attack once people have calmed down.

Finally: If you're talking about dumb questions, it's better to ask them and appear stupid then get smart, than to not ask them appear smart and actually be stupid. Stupid gets you dead, smart keeps you alive.

OK, from someone who is multi-place rotary wing aviator, and has had to instruct new Lts on goggles - you're wrong.

Also, screaming can be an instructional technique. While you "shut down", one kid I flew with wouldn't respond if I didn't scream at him. I'm not a screamer, but with that kid - I had to be. Also, if his screaming is causing you to "shut down" and is such a CRM nightmare, why don't you use one of the A's from CRM - Assertiveness and let him know? There was an NSI when I was a Lt that was a screamer from take off to landing, everyone hated flying with him. Midway through one flight with him, I had enough and yelled back. His response was "it's about time you showed some assertiveness." Never screamed at me again, and it was actually enjoyable to fly with him after that.

You're too sensitive.

Otto, close your mouth (that means stop typing) and start listening to guys with thousands of hours of rotary wing experience. These guys are right. Right now you sound like every single snot nosed PQM who thinks they know a thing or two and thinks that the worst thing that can happen on a flight is that their little PQM ego gets bruised. Right now a good PQM would sit back and listen instead of firing off arguments and counterpoints for every stupid nitpicky point. It's that sort of behavior that's going to cause your HACs to get pissed and too lose their shit with you. In general, your HACs don't want to be screamers. If they end up screaming at you, it's probably because you fucked something up enough times or fucked something up enough to scare them that bad that they feel that they have to scream.

Save your "ideal world" conversations for the 2P mess on your cruise. Until then, hit the books and start studying. Here's a place to start. If you don't know the answers to these questions, then you need to study more before you can become a 2P:
1. what's the blue light on an LHA/D mean?
2. describe a Mk105.
3. describe a Mk92. when is it used?
4. talk your way into every class of ship. draw all the spots on LHA/D. are their any landing limits associated with certain spots?
5. spacing for each gun pattern for M240 and .50cal.
6. talk your way through a gun pattern
7. walk through a full card of NVD tacform, with correct calls
8. how many wooden pallets are required for a practice load? metal pallets?
9. what constitutes a light density load?
10. what are ideal winds for vertrep?

 

[BOMBSonHAWKEYES]

Otto, just in case you were wondering - I think you're full of shit. I'm a Basic Instructor Pilot, Terrain Flight Instructor, Night Systems Instructor, Weapons and Tactics Instructor, Operational Risk Management Instructor, and a Crew Resource Management Facilitator.

Yeah, but they still won't let you fly by yourself, big dawg!

 

[Kickflip89]

Kickflip's theory of flight school (as a current student):

-Show up as prepared as you can be

-Ask stupid questions early, don't wait until it's obvious you didn't know and you didn't ask.

-Execute as well as you can

-Don't sweat the small stuff. Always try to be safe.

-You're gonna make tons of mistakes. Some will even be serious, and you might fail a few events. Bounce back.

-Most of what you will hear from some instructors is what you screwed up, not what you did really well. Don't take it personally.

-If an instructor pisses you off, vent to other students, sleep on it, and then rethink what he was saying. There may be some good advice in there somewhere.

-You can think an instructor is a douche bag and still learn from him without being disrespectful or unprofessional. It's nice to get along with everyone you work with, but that is not always the case.

-Occasionally, instructors will be wrong. Don't freak out, either let it go or bring it up to them or your class advisor / leader / whatever.

-Do your thing professionally, and try to have fun...especially on the weekends.

Having gone through joint training with Navy and Air Force IPs INFOs in VT-10 and VT-86...yeah, the AF seems a bit more anal about certain things like boldface being absolutely perfectly verbatim, and to a certain degree they can be a pain in the @ss about things that don't really seem that important. On the other hand, I'd say that overall they are professional, dedicated, and good instructors. I'm admittedly a moderate kool-aide drinker at times, but the truth is there's a certain amount of BS you're gonna have to put up with as a student. Some of it is probably legit BS, and some of it is probably just perceived as BS. Vent to your fellow students, and if you think you're really having an issue, put it on a critique or talk to the stan dudes. It's not like you don't have the ability to provide feedback.

It would be nice if flight school was solely about training you to do your job, and that is a big part of it, but it's also about making sure you can handle your job. As a student, you have to prove yourself over and over and over again, it's not personal, it's just the way it is. Stay calm, listen, ask questions when you have them, study, have fun. It's not rocket surgery.

 

[statesman]

In API I remember hearing several times:

"Until you get your wings, you're still interviewing for the job".... I think that's a good way of looking at it...

 

[Lawman]

In API I remember hearing several times:

"Until you get your wings, you're still interviewing for the job".... I think that's a good way of looking at it...

Yeah, and once you do you start interviewing for your next job (PIC/Promotion/DH/Etc).

 

[NYYanks]

"Until you get your wings, you're still interviewing for the job".... I think that's a good way of looking at it...

Awesome statement that should always keep things in perspective!