How well does screaming at dash 2 do in a tactical environment? During Ziplip ops?
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The perennial Navy vs AF flight school smackdown (split from the "What %" article)
- Thread starter scoolbubba
- Start date
How well does screaming at dash 2 do in a tactical environment? During Ziplip ops?
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
OK, from someone who is multi-place rotary wing aviator, and has had to instruct new Lts on goggles - you're wrong.
Also, screaming can be an instructional technique. While you "shut down", one kid I flew with wouldn't respond if I didn't scream at him. I'm not a screamer, but with that kid - I had to be. Also, if his screaming is causing you to "shut down" and is such a CRM nightmare, why don't you use one of the A's from CRM - Assertiveness and let him know? There was an NSI when I was a Lt that was a screamer from take off to landing, everyone hated flying with him. Midway through one flight with him, I had enough and yelled back. His response was "it's about time you showed some assertiveness." Never screamed at me again, and it was actually enjoyable to fly with him after that.
You're too sensitive.
I think we're getting into the weeds here. OK, sure. If someone isn't responding to you and you're in dire need of their attention or the controls, scream back. By all means. Wrestle the controls, hit them in the fucking face if you have to. I'm talking about the needlessly hostile IP. When you're on final and they're screaming "You're too fucking FAST! Slow the shit down!"
I'm not talking about a dude on NVGs on a TERF route who got too low with the HAC going "My controls" ... no response "My controls!".... no response "My fucking aircraft! Take your hands off the controls!" Screaming may be warranted in a safety of flight issue, but not for mundane instruction.
And as for IPs yelling at studs or copilots in order for them to "yell back" and be "assertive"... in a military environment, subordinates are not trained to yell at superiors... even in the aircraft... that doesn't seem like a smart idea to "test" a 2P. But that's just me. Assertive? Yes. Yelling? No.
Maybe it's just me, but in dire situations (not like the first example, but like EPs and training), we should be cool, level-headed and decisive... not responding out of stress and fear.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
I think you missed my point. That kid DIDN'T respond AT ALL to instruction (whether it was day, night, NVGs or not) without screaming. Screaming can be warranted during mundane instruction. Once you start teaching, you'll see that each student responds to different things.
There are no seniors/subordinates in the cockpit. If you think that, then you're going to let someone kill you someday. Period.
Not at all. If someone is off parameters or acting other than what they said they'd do, I call them on it. Never had to yell. I call them on it, and they correct it. If it ever came to it, I'd take controls, even to the point of yelling at them to get the point across.
YOUR point was that the IP was yelling at you SIMPLY to get you to yell back. That's not something we do.... or at least I do.
And if someone is not responding to instruction, they are either task-saturated or just plain dense. I've been distracted with radios or just a new profile I'd never flown before which warranted my HAC telling me something twice to get my attention. In flight school? yeah, they had to yell at me to get my attention... if they are further along in the pipeline or their career.. chances are they are task saturated. I still feel my point stands... in these cases yelling is WARRANTED and for a specific purpose... not cussing you out because you're 10 knots fast on final.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
I think you don't understand. He's a Riddle grad, which means he's probably got his CFI/CFII... He KNOWS how to instruct. Not only that, but because he KNOWS how to instruct, he must also KNOW how to instruct CRM.
Otto, just in case you were wondering - I think you're full of shit. I'm a Basic Instructor Pilot, Terrain Flight Instructor, Night Systems Instructor, Weapons and Tactics Instructor, Operational Risk Management Instructor, and a Crew Resource Management Facilitator. Yes, some guys scream "just because", some scream because they want to put you under stress and see how you react, and some scream because they realize it's the only instructional technique that can get through to some individuals. Just discounting it for "CRM" is bullshit. If you don't open your suck hole if it bothers you so much and tell them, then you're failing in CRM as much as they are.
Once you actually GO somewhere and DO something - maybe the screaming will make more sense. And being a PQM in a squadron based out of Guam doesn't mean you know anything. I'm talking about being in Iraq/Afghanistan and that your approach into the LZ is DEPENDENT on you hitting the parameters, lest you ball it up. Guess what? Your 2P or HAC will be screaming because they're scared shitless, and you have to correct. This is what your IPs are coming from.
You may be surprised what you experience in the future. This guy was a LtCol, and I was a Capt. He wanted me to assert the fact that I was the HAC, and beyond that he wanted me to assert the fact that I was a member of the crew. If you get so wrapped up about the fact that someone grossly outranks you, even though you're the HAC - guess what... It probably will end up as a causal factor for your mishap that you couldn't assert yourself. Did I enjoy getting yelled at? No. But it was an extreme example of screaming used as a teaching tool. He wanted to teach me that "no rank in the cockpit" is not a bullshit catch phrase. To this day, I value that lesson - because I'm coming home to PSW every night if I have anything to say about it. If it requires me to wrestle the controls away from an O-6, than so be it.
Did they teach basic paygrade recce in any of those instructor courses you took?
Don't want to dogpile on Otto, but a similar situation caused me to fail a NATOPS check ride. The guy giving me my check was the saltiest E-6 I had ever met. He knew the airplane inside and out, crewed in H-2's in VN, and all of us NFG's were in awe of him. He didn't suffer fools either. He typically gave you one chance to learn what he was teaching. Anyway, come check ride day and he is my evaluator. Because I couldn't get past how I related to him out of the aircraft, he fucked with me the entire flight. Funny thing was I couldn't figure out why. I was pretty pissed when it was over. He was even more so. Took me aside, read me the riot act (he chewed my ass HARD), then he gave me the debrief, failed me, and said "see you next week". Lesson learned: I am the Aircrewman, he is the Passenger. I am to assert myself regardless of rank of my passenger. Which comes in handy on a LAMPS det, since it is very likely somebody with Flag rank will end up being your passenger one day.
Naval Aviators are supposed to be good at compartmentalizing, dealing with a screamer just gives you more practice at it. Don't forget the main lesson for trying to stress you out during all aspects of training....so you are calm, cool, and collected when the shit hits the fan.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
I'm well aware that a LtCol is an O-5. The guy I was flying with was a LtCol. However, outside of that flight I've been the HAC with O-6's and O-7's before - and guess what. I'll still wrestle the controls away from them if need be.
Relax, just poking fun, which I would argue is far more productive than most of this thread.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Ahhh, got it. I was already hot under the collar from getting instructional techniques from a PQM, I apologize...
Threadjack.....
When we were flying out of Howard AFB in Panama, the Air Force got really upset when our guy dumped the aircraft's pisser down a toilet in the head. "You got to call the 24th Environmental Services Squadron on the base ops freq to come empty that in a sanitary manner!" The weren't really happy when I called after the next flight....."Hey could you send someone from the 24th Piss Sucking Squadron to come suck our pisser out?"......Hey, I worked with those guys once! They were right next door to the 256th Tactical Towbar Squadron.?
I suppose I have to disagree here... and run the risk of jumping on the "UPT sucks bandwagon thats rolling right along here"...
My view is not that UPT doesn't create good pilots, because obviously it does. But a better approach would be the question how Primary AND UPT can create BETTER pilots than they do now.
I don't know if data exists that says Primary or UPT does a better job of producing pilots... I seriously doubt that good data is available because the programs are so different and because the needs are so different for each service. So I'll refrain from going down that road...
All services obviously have a vested interest in producing pilots that can operate under a higher than normal level of stress. A4s says 'lets bring back the screamers'... I will be the first to agree that someone screaming behind you telling you that you suck is a great way to generate stress, but that matters very little if it doesn't produce a quality pilot. I would argue that you might end up producing a worse pilot... this based on what we know of behavior and learning sciences...
Take the analogy of a dog (analogies are all inherently imperfect so bear with me)... if you have a puppy which shows great promise for being a working dog, is assertive, has good energy, drive, and temperament and then you give him to a heavy handed handler you can break that dog, and turn what would have been a great working dog into a timid animal who may be unpredictable, and might not even make a good house pet. By contrast if you give him to a handler that finds ways to encourage his learning, and supportive, while still being stern you may end up with a dog capable of military / police work.
Am I saying that you are going to create crappy pilots if someone screams at you? ABSOLUTELY NOT... obviously great pilots have been produced that way... but in the past 20 years HUGE advancements have been made in behavior / learning sciences and for the military to ignore those advancements would be dangerous. We hold onto our traditions tightly in the military, and for good reason, our traditions connect us nub ensigns to you crusty old guys, and to those who are no longer with us... but to perpetuate a less effective way of training simply because "thats the way we did it in the good ol' days" is unprofessional. Our enemies will change their tactics and training techniques based on new information and scientific developments... it would be good of us to do the same...
Anecdotealy I can say that I fly and more importantly LEARN better when instructors don't scream and yell... maybe I'm not tough, but I would rather learn as much as I can in flight school, using the most up to date techniques than be able to tell stories about what an ass hole my onwing is...
We know that Primary and UPT produce quality pilots, thats proven by our country's track record in aviation and particularly combat... the goal should be to produce better pilots, always better pilots... and sometimes achieving those goals might be achieved by unconventional, or less obvious methods...
I've been laying back just watching this one - until now. Otto, just to make sure I wasn't being too hard on you I went back and looked at your profile again. You've been wearing your wings since April '09 correct? At least that's what your profile says. I was expecting it to say that you were winged in 19 flippin' 80 with all the sage wisdom you're throwing around here for us.
This isn't meant to be a "well you've only been winged for such and such amount of time" rant - its meant to be a not so subtle reminder that there are people on this website that have spent more time on the toilet that you have in a flight suit and with that comes A LOT MORE real world experience. If your goal is to get to 3,000 posts then by all means, keep posting . If your goal is to establish or maintain any level of credibility you might want to let this one go.