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The great Helo debate
- Thread starter PhrogLoop
- Start date
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
What's the big deal with rotor brake starts? In the Phrog, we do it every start, land based or sea based. There can't be THAT much difference, a helicopter is a helicopter...
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There isn't. We made a blanket change to what we do based on a misunderstanding of technical data.
Did you guys fix it?
A little late, but someone commented on high vs. low inertia heads. The advantages of a high-inertia head are obvious, what does a low-inertia head give you? (My TMS has a low-inertia head and pretty poor auto characteristics).
Just cause it was brought up, the old Huey blades were tough as shit. Had a bud who went to shut a cabin door mid-flight and the door flew off, bounced off the blades and tumbled (lucky it didn't hit the tail). They were able to maintain controlled flight and land - to find a huge gash in the undersides of both blades, and it still was flying fine.
The verdict is still out on the new H-1 blades toughness. That being said, I still don't get how inertia would affect the blades hitting trees...but I guess that horse has been beat.
Just cause it was brought up, the old Huey blades were tough as shit. Had a bud who went to shut a cabin door mid-flight and the door flew off, bounced off the blades and tumbled (lucky it didn't hit the tail). They were able to maintain controlled flight and land - to find a huge gash in the undersides of both blades, and it still was flying fine.
The verdict is still out on the new H-1 blades toughness. That being said, I still don't get how inertia would affect the blades hitting trees...but I guess that horse has been beat.
Ok, in all fairness that was a typo. Supposed to be Ng. Forgive me, I was drunk debating. Engines turning, rotors not. Either rotor brake or trees can slow down the blades.
Flip Flop!
Actually, I think you intending to type Ng would show an even greater misunderstanding of how the engine works. While it might be plausible that you got through an entire fleet tour without doing a rotor brake start (and hence knowing the normal indications), it is completely implausible that you didn't get stuck doing a few hundred waterwashes ...
I call shenanigans, g and p are no where near each other on the keyboard!
Plus, it's a common misconception I've seen from guys fresh from the rag that on a waterwash the question comes up "why is there no Np registering on the vids?" I just would've thought you would've covered it by now.
Plus, it's a common misconception I've seen from guys fresh from the rag that on a waterwash the question comes up "why is there no Np registering on the vids?" I just would've thought you would've covered it by now.
@HueyCobra- the main disadvantage to a high inertia rotor system is more structure. Beefier = more cost and weight = less fuel or payload. As Pags said, for what we need the 60 to do--and pretty much all operational helos after flight school--the low inertia head is better.
@phrogpilot- a few years ago, the Navy 60 community figured out they had an "Np shaft rub" issue on normal, everyday rotor brake starts. The issue is peculiar to the T700 engine. As Gatordev and bert have alluded, the community addressed the problem in a way that... uhh... addressed the problem.
I now regret mentioning rotor brake starts.
@phrogpilot- a few years ago, the Navy 60 community figured out they had an "Np shaft rub" issue on normal, everyday rotor brake starts. The issue is peculiar to the T700 engine. As Gatordev and bert have alluded, the community addressed the problem in a way that... uhh... addressed the problem.
I now regret mentioning rotor brake starts.
Yet another interesting Army/Navy difference. We do engine washes with the rotor brake off. We have no opertor checklist for the engine wash, so we use the engine manual procedures...which are written to include a hot section wash. The rotor brake is left off so that the power turbine blades are washed evenly. So, even when doing just a gas path wash (ie cold section), we leave the rotor brake off.
So, what is the deal with the highspeed shaft sagging on rotor brake starts? Is this at the front of the engine, ie output shaft or is it the power turbine shaft and torque reference shaft? Where does it rub when you release the rotor brake and advanceto fly too fast? We hadn't heard of this when I left the Navy in 1996 and the Army hasn't mentioned it with the 60M yrt.
So, what is the deal with the highspeed shaft sagging on rotor brake starts? Is this at the front of the engine, ie output shaft or is it the power turbine shaft and torque reference shaft? Where does it rub when you release the rotor brake and advanceto fly too fast? We hadn't heard of this when I left the Navy in 1996 and the Army hasn't mentioned it with the 60M yrt.
As Gatordev and bert have alluded, the community addressed the problem in a way that... uhh... addressed the problem.
I now regret mentioning rotor brake starts.
This is where in part I think Superhawk is fail. Now instead of only having to argue with the Otto's in your own community, you have to deal with/talk sense into the Otto's from the other -60 communities as well. Its a lot harder to end up with common sense procedures that way because as we all know, there are some real winners out there.
For you young guys, remember this when you start asking why we can't just fix something, or why a procedure seems convoluted/counter-intuitive.
Perhaps, but I think it's also just a basic lack of knowledge of the original problem. I've flown with some sharp guys, former RAG IPs and/or high-time -60 pilots, and unless they were part of the process with GE, there doesn't seem to be much knowledge of the "why" of the problem. The ONLY reason I learned about it was because, as a CAT III, the guy I mentioned earlier was giving me my Natops check and explained it to me.
Later, when my det had a shaft-rub incidents on the boat, did I hear from GE (through our rep) that they were under the impression that the fleet knew GE's procedures. Couple that with guys only "knowing" it the current way who are program managers and I think the institutional inertia just starts to become too great. And on the LAMPS side, institutional inertia is a Fourth Law of physics.