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The great Helo debate

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None
You know what would make the 60S awesome? 3 radios. Until then, it's a genuine P.O.S.
LOL. That is one of the things I like about the UH/HH-60M. Two ARC-201 FMs plus two ARC-231 FM/VHF/UHF/LMR/Marine band radios. One ARC-231 is even configured for Satcom.

xmid,
You are right. Every time I've talk to Sikorsky they have said the same about both Navy and Army procurement. New Army Blackhawks still have the ridiculous fuel sampling system because "we" asked for it. I was told by a guy on the assembly line in West Palm beach that the Army actually owns the blueprints/plans for their Blackhawks.

Don't even get me started about HONTEK blade coating.
 

SynixMan

HKG Based Artificial Excrement Pilot
pilot
Contributor
Pags, I think a marinized S-92 would have suited us (HSC CVW) better for the things we want it to do. It's a similar deck footprint due to the tricycle gear, more capability, bigger cabin, and more room for growth. (And before you mention the Canadians problems, yes, I'm aware). Maybe as a straight SAR/Vertep truck the S was good, but it's showing it's limit. Parts commonality is all well and good, but not at sacrificing what's needed. And when "parts compatibility" gets you a previous generation engine, transmission, and rotor system, it's gone too far.

The common cockpit is horrible and the S is the red headed stepchild as far as compatibility. It was designed for the R and we get what's left. It's amazingly frustrating just working with the MPS and seeing what doesn't work.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Pags, I think a marinized S-92 would have suited us (HSC CVW) better for the things we want it to do. It's a similar deck footprint due to the tricycle gear, more capability, bigger cabin, and more room for growth. (And before you mention the Canadians problems, yes, I'm aware). Maybe as a straight SAR/Vertep truck the S was good, but it's showing it's limit. Parts commonality is all well and good, but not at sacrificing what's needed. And when "parts compatibility" gets you a previous generation engine, transmission, and rotor system, it's gone too far.

The common cockpit is horrible and the S is the red headed stepchild as far as compatibility. It was designed for the R and we get what's left. It's amazingly frustrating just working with the MPS and seeing what doesn't work.
What I was trying to say in my timeline post was that the S-92 didn't fly until 2000, several years after the 60S acquisition had begun. At the time of the initial acquisition, the -401C was the current generation engine. Over 15yrs later, it's no longer current, but at the time of the initial acquisition the equipment was current. I think if you bound your pretend acqusition with the equipment that was available in the late 90s, the helo master plan, the available funding, and the need to balance disparate mission sets, you'd probably end up with some variety of 60.

You're still not saying which mission you need this for and how an S-92 would benefit that particular mission set. The S-92 is also not armed with forward firing ordnance, so it wouldn't work for SUW. And again, you say "what we want it to do." At the end of the day, it's not about what the community wants to do, but what, as Bert said, the "big important people in Naval Aviation" want it to do.

The HSC community, as Bert mentioned, is still all over the map. Part of it wants to be a super tactical gunship while the other part wants to fly day fams with the occasional VERTREP thrown in. None of this seems to align with what the Fleet needs the community to do (AMCM?!). You don't seem to get this "I wish I was something else" in other communities. for all the shit talking, HSM and HM seem to have a good grasp on their lot in life. You'd never hear a marine helo driver wish for the capability of another platform, with the exception of uh-1 pilots when they see the 60S.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
LOL. That is one of the things I like about the UH/HH-60M. Two ARC-201 FMs plus two ARC-231 FM/VHF/UHF/LMR/Marine band radios. One ARC-231 is even configured for Satcom.

It amazes me how much capability an extra radio adds and that the 60S doesn't have it.
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
More amazing on going backward in capability - B/F/H all had 2 line of sight and one OTH and somehow when we moved on we only got 2 MFRs.
 

SynixMan

HKG Based Artificial Excrement Pilot
pilot
Contributor

I pick up what you're putting down, but I still think the -S was and is shortsighted. I get it, the S was a short fuse acquisition to replace the Phrog in a quick and low risk fashion. It had what was available at the time. It was not forward thinking in any fashion, save for a unique and now obsolete glass cockpit.

Mission sets? What we train for but hopefully never need. ASU/SOF/PR. I'm not some tactics sycophant, but bringing those capes to the fleet is important. Any bubba can do SAR/LOG/VERTREP. It takes time and the ever illusive "Give a Damn" to be proficient in the other arenas. So we don't to it daily? Neither does the "experts", the AF Pararescue bubbas. Their doing medevacs in AFG just to keep relevant. It's a skill that's rarely called upon but nonetheless needed. You could say the same for BFM amongst the VFA dudes. When's the last time a US jet downed another jet in anger? 99? We've had PR events since then, so your argument would stand equally to the Jet dudes practicing BFM.

What do we need? A real replacement for the H, not just a truck that we bolt shit onto and hope for the best. Ability to go over land and succeed, relevant over water, and can fill the SAR/LOG/VR role. The other modern militaries get this (AW101, Super Cougar, etc). Saying that nothing existed at the time to fulfill that need is just excusing our acquisition system again for giving us what they had, and not what we need.
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
Nothing wrong with the basic -60L airframe (which is what we bought from the Army and made an S) - if it was so bad then the SOAR would have looked for other medium lift options
 

SynixMan

HKG Based Artificial Excrement Pilot
pilot
Contributor
Nothing wrong with the basic -60L airframe (which is what we bought from the Army and made an S) - if it was so bad then the SOAR would have looked for other medium lift options

Wait, didn't they? They drive Mikes
 

lowflier03

So no $hit there I was
pilot
Nothing wrong with the basic -60L airframe (which is what we bought from the Army and made an S) - if it was so bad then the SOAR would have looked for other medium lift options
Other than them flying Mikes now.
While we bought the -L airframe, we didn't actually take any of the useful gear with it. Witness the bullshit with the process of adding the wings, adding weapons to the wings, not being able to mount miniguns, not having AR capability, not having a moving map, etc.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
I pick up what you're putting down, but I still think the -S was and is shortsighted. I get it, the S was a short fuse acquisition to replace the Phrog in a quick and low risk fashion. It had what was available at the time. It was not forward thinking in any fashion, save for a unique and now obsolete glass cockpit.

Mission sets? What we train for but hopefully never need. ASU/SOF/PR. I'm not some tactics sycophant, but bringing those capes to the fleet is important. Any bubba can do SAR/LOG/VERTREP. It takes time and the ever illusive "Give a Damn" to be proficient in the other arenas. So we don't to it daily? Neither does the "experts", the AF Pararescue bubbas. Their doing medevacs in AFG just to keep relevant. It's a skill that's rarely called upon but nonetheless needed. You could say the same for BFM amongst the VFA dudes. When's the last time a US jet downed another jet in anger? 99? We've had PR events since then, so your argument would stand equally to the Jet dudes practicing BFM.

What do we need? A real replacement for the H, not just a truck that we bolt shit onto and hope for the best. Ability to go over land and succeed, relevant over water, and can fill the SAR/LOG/VR role. The other modern militaries get this (AW101, Super Cougar, etc). Saying that nothing existed at the time to fulfill that need is just excusing our acquisition system again for giving us what they had, and not what we need.
You still fail to give specifics how the AW101 and the Super Cougar would fill capabilities that the MH-60S lacks. Range? Speed? Cargo Room? What do you need these for? Were they specified in the 60S requirements document and the airframe then didn't meet it? As before, the two examples you've mentioned don't have forward firing weapons capability so there goes that mission set. The AW101 that the UK uses has two versions: their ASW shipboard helo and their Commando Helo. Which version do you want? Again, both of these helos are significantly larger than the MH-60 airframe and are much more akin to the size of a 53D/J. What do you need the added room for to conduct the missions that are currently required for the MH-60? The Navy doesn't need a troop transport, we're not in that business. Also, with the increased size, you lose the ability to operate from all the ships in the fleet. Not very useful for a Naval helicopter. You wouldn't be able to take that airframe and throw it on a USNS a la the Expeditionary Sea Combat det.

Again, what does the 60S fail to do that the 60H did? It's ASU capabilities are beyond the 60H with the addition of the M197 and the LAU. At the time that the 60S was acquired, the 60L, as used by SOAR, was the pre-eminent SpecOps helo. So, at the time of the initial acquisition it sure seems like it would make a lot of sense to acquire a navalized version of the 60L to fulfill the 60H replacement requirement.

You guys are approaching the problem like HSC fleet LTs and not Navy-wide helicopter program managers. Navy helos currently perform ASW/ASU, SUW, Sea Combat, Fleet defense/AMCM/SAR/LOG/NSW/PR missions. I'd wager a bet that NSW and PR are at the bottom of the Navy's fleet helo priorities. I'd be willing to guess that ASU, ASW, and AMCM are top concerns. Big Navy has HSC-84/85 for it's NSW specific needs. Big SOCOM has SOAR for it's NSW needs. In a joint environment, the AF has better PR resources. Does the fleet need an organic ability to do NSW and PR? Honestly, I don't know.

What was the bullshit with adding the wings to the 60S? Is your issue with how it was done? If so, who care? The fleet now has the capability to utilize the weapons that OPNAV has determined that are a best fit. The 60S can mount a minigun, no one has decided to pay for it or the NCEA and T&R costs that would come with it. Same with in-flight refueling. The plumbing is there, the need isn't.

What else did USN miss out on from the 60L that it needed? The 60S has the capability to use a moving map, the Navy decided not to pay for it. Since they have all the other missions to fund, you can see how a moving map would be towards the bottom of the priority list.

The Navy has elected to spend RW money on other things that the communities and the OPNAV ROs have determined are most needed. GPS approach capability. Improved gearboxes. Datalinks. Sonar and radar improvements for the 60R. AMCM improvements. All of these aren't necessarily what y'all want, but it's what Big Navy needs. If you guys want oodles of money for overland missions, you need to go fly for SOAR or 84/85.
 
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