NEWS Tesla Autopilot and similar automated driving systems get poor rating from prominent safety group

[Hair Warrior]

All of this is why I drive a diesel. Long product cycle, efficiency, multiple ways to produce fuel (some of which are actually sustainable) and recyclability of the majority of parts at the end. Sold.

Check out “thermal depolymerization.”

You can turn poultry processing discards and restaurants’ used cooking oil into deisel fuel, and old circuit boards and HDMI cables into gold nuggets (assuming gold plated).

Thermal requires a ton of energy input for heat… unless you find a way to use “free” geothermal heating from volcanos/magma.

 

[gparks1989]

The material production cycle needs to be closed for "economies of scale" to work, or we'll be strip mining even more of the planet for a constant supply of lithium- trading one environmental insult for another. As far as I know, lithium batteries cannot be economically recycled, and that's a problem. Whether through a viable recycling method or an entirely new battery technology, the ability to reduce the up-front environmental toll of EVs would be a major win for the space. The second space to explore would be in lengthening product cycles, but it's hard to imagine that happening in our current "The Street is King" business mindset. Tesla seems all-in on lithium mining, and certainly on planned obsolescence (plenty of evidence in this thread) so I am not convinced they have anything other than profitability in mind- most notably at the expense of the same environment they claim to support. Sounds a lot like, oh, I dunno, oil companies, perhaps? With 8 billion people on the planet, that's going to cause problems.

BLUF: Outsourcing your pollution to Kurzblackistan (or, Iraq, or Arizona) doesn't make you forward-thinking. It just makes you an asshole. I'm looking at you, CA.

As for the grid, the issue isn't necessarily capacity- it's insufficient storage and politics blocking some of the most intelligent sources of power for the base load (e.g. nuclear). Finally, smart chargers are cool, but how does that help me when I have a time-critical appointment across town? The challenges of EVs will continue to be power density, charging times, and material impact.

However, for some applications, EVs are great. I have an electric mower that's awesome. Quiet, simple, clean, and efficient. Since I only use it once a week during the warm seasons, and it has 2x the capacity needed to mow my lawn, charging time and power density are not problems.

I'm with you on all of that. A few minor pushbacks. Battery recycling is a growing space and I'd bet the economic feasibility of it is not far off. I'm sure there will be some firms that fail along the way, but by all accounts, it is an emerging, viable industry.

The time-critical appointment example is a bit of a red herring. A few reasons. First, like I said in my previous post, if you have a garage/driveway with access to even a normal outlet, there's no reason you can't have your car always at 50% charge. That's more than enough to get cross-town. Second, when my wife drove an ICE car, I can't tell you the number of times I would get into with <10 miles left. That disrupted many a time-critical event.

For what it's worth, I think Toyota has been really smart (and much maligned) in this space. Vehicles like the Prius Prime are a phenomenal way to bridge the gap between ICE and pure EV. And when we finally go to a two-car household, we'll certainly have one hybrid/ICE and one pure EV.

And I'm really ambivalent about the supposed environmentally friendliness of EVs. I find that they are way better than driving ICE cars and meet my needs fully. Plus I hate gas stations, and in my neck of the woods they are a common spot for carjackings, so there's that.

My biggest reason for pushing EVs in the US is because of China. A lot of the political-motivated antipathy toward EVs only opens up the space for Chinese companies to eat our lunch. They're cheap, poorly made blah blah blah, but they're proliferating rapidly. The height of irony is that Elon's drive to capture the Chinese market only empowered local firms which are now rapidly overtaking Tesla.

And yes, the lack of concerted push for nuclear energy is a policy crime.

 

[ChuckMK23]

@gparks1989 I think the tide is turning on nuclear - a plant in Michigan is in process of going active again after a period of being dormant - and the famed Inflation Reduction Act was key in stopping the national decline in terawatt hours produced by nuclear. It is entirely reasonable to view that the tide is turning.

I think the EV train is going to gain momentum - and its the appropriate role of the Federal Government to do so. My view is all the problems have been worked out with engineered solutions - from lithium production, to grid capacity. Its now about adoption - and it is the virtuous thing for state and federal gov to put their thumb on the scale.

Had a major conflict with my homeowners association on garaging EV's and fire safety and fire threat. After presenting the data the issue was disposed of - the fire threat of EV's is a non-issue and I would characterize it as a old-wives tale at this point.

School buses used in the US by public schools have a EV conversion mandate. This is just one example where federal officials are doing the right thing by demanding local school boards purchase electric powered school busses.

 

[hscs]

Shack

Don’t forget disposal at the vehicle’s end of life. Huge environmental concern almost nobody is talking about.

Also, have you seen how much water it takes to extonguish a Tesla fire? Huge safety and environmental and feasibility concern there, too. Fire depts aren’t equipped to handle car fires if >50% of cars on the road become EVs.

This goes to my “battery composition” comment. I stand by my cateogirzation of EVs as a novelty absent major new technology.

Yes. There is absolutely no 'cradle to grave' program for the EVs. We will be dealing with 'not in my backyard' lithium disposal unless someone comes up with a way to recycle.

I'm also not convinced that they are more environmentally friendly - how many are being charged by plants powered by coal? How much energy does it cost to mine, refine, ship, store? And we haven't even gotten into I^2R losses. I haven't seen any proof (other than from the take your private jets to a climate conference crowd) that shows me the math that EVs are overall better than refining gas.

 

[Hair Warrior]

Had a major conflict with my homeowners association on garaging EV's and fire safety and fire threat. After presenting the data the issue was disposed of - the fire threat of EV's is a non-issue and I would characterize it as a old-wives tale at this point.

The EV fire threat is not about spontaneous ignition, but rather how hard the fire is to extinguish after a car crash.

Yes. There is absolutely no 'cradle to grave' program for the EVs. We will be dealing with 'not in my backyard' lithium disposal unless someone comes up with a way to recycle.

I'm also not convinced that they are more environmentally friendly - how many are being charged by plants powered by coal? How much energy does it cost to mine, refine, ship, store? And we haven't even gotten into I^2R losses. I haven't seen any proof (other than from the take your private jets to a climate conference crowd) that shows me the math that EVs are overall better than refining gas.

They probably are worse for the environment, as currently built.

The plant-based hamburgers are also a worse carbon footprint than the grassfed beef hamburgers.

The metal Stanley/Yeti water jugs require so much energy input to manufacture and ship that you need to refill them thousands of times to be better for the environment than plastic water bottles.

Ditto for those reusable cloth grocery shopping bags in place of brown recycled paper grocery bags.

It’s a whole theme… Nobody cares about the actual math. It’s all about posturing for peers/strangers.

Caveat: If you like the taste of plant burgers, or you like Yeti mugs (we have several in the house), that’s fine. Just let’s not pretend we’re saving the planet/ let’s not preach to others they need to adopt a certain lifestyle to appease the vocal minority.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Ditto for those reusable cloth grocery shopping bags in place of brown recycled paper grocery bags.

Fun fact, here in WA state, the default bag became plastic about a year or two ago. You have to specifically ask for paper if that is what you want. And either way, they charge you 8c a bag. Not sure what any of that is doing for the environment but i guess the smart people figured out how……

We get the plastic bags about half the time because they make good dog s**** receptacles when poop scooping. I think they might be recycled plastic, which makes me feel great when i am holding poop in one and dumping it into another. For 16c that is a bargain. Though I prefer the thinner plastic bags that are still free in the produce section because they adhere to my hand better in the windy environment that is generally my backyard

 

[JTS11]

Fun fact, here in WA state, the default bag became plastic about a year or two ago. You have to specifically ask for paper if that is what you want. And either way, they charge you 8c a bag. Not sure what any of that is doing for the environment but i guess the smart people figured out how……

We get the plastic bags about half the time because they make good dog s**** receptacles when poop scooping. I think they might be recycled plastic, which makes me feel great when i am holding poop in one and dumping it into another. For 16c that is a bargain. Though I prefer the thinner plastic bags that are still free in the produce section because they adhere to my hand better in the windy environment that is generally my backyard

In order to be more climate friendly, you should feign a "latex or plastic bag" allergy, and just "raw dog" that waste cleanup. But I do appreciate your effort to go with the "ultra-thin" produce bag vice the checkout plastic. 😄

To be serious, I zone out on these media pieces that describe the existential threat of climate change...and there's no mention of nuclear power.

 

[Hair Warrior]

Fun fact, here in WA state, the default bag became plastic about a year or two ago. You have to specifically ask for paper if that is what you want. And either way, they charge you 8c a bag. Not sure what any of that is doing for the environment but i guess the smart people figured out how……

We get the plastic bags about half the time because they make good dog s**** receptacles when poop scooping. I think they might be recycled plastic, which makes me feel great when i am holding poop in one and dumping it into another. For 16c that is a bargain. Though I prefer the thinner plastic bags that are still free in the produce section because they adhere to my hand better in the windy environment that is generally my backyard

I took an environmental economics class in college (a long time ago), and one point the prof made was:

If burning hydrocarbon fuel into the atmosphere is so bad for the encironment, why are plastic bags also considered bad for the environment? A plastic grocery bag is basically a 99.9999% guarantee that those carbon molecules will stay in the soil for 1-10k years rather than get released into the atmosphere.

 

[sevenhelmet]

To be serious, I zone out on these media pieces that describe the existential threat of climate change...and there's no mention of nuclear power.

Nope, it’s all wind and solar. Because paving over ecosystems with unrecyclable components is so much better.

 

[Spekkio]

EVs are a novelty and won’t become environmentally sustainable unless technology drastically changes. Either the power grid, the vehicle power source/ battery composition, or the way the raw materials are mined and refined.

The nuts and bolts of Schumer's Inflation Reduction Act spend $650B of federal dollars to plug these gaps. Not insofar as solving any of the power grid and supply issues, but simply paying auto makers so their EV sales are net revenue positive.

 

[Hair Warrior]

The nuts and bolts of Schumer's Inflation Reduction Act spend $650B of federal dollars to plug these gaps. Not insofar as solving any of the power grid and supply issues, but simply paying auto makers so their EV sales are net revenue positive.

And now look at Fisker…

Freer markets generally work better.

I’m not saying we need 7 year olds in Appalachian coal mines again. But we currently have 7 year olds in African lithium mines trying to keep up with rechargable battery demand, so… (shrug)

 

[sevenhelmet]

The nuts and bolts of Schumer's Inflation Reduction Act spend $650B of federal dollars to plug these gaps. Not insofar as solving any of the power grid and supply issues, but simply paying auto makers so their EV sales are net revenue positive.

Huh? Maybe the sarcasm was over my head there. @Hair Warrior was talking about EVs being environmentally sustainable, and your post was about the USG putting its thumb on the scale to make them revenue positive for automakers.

Until we actually start looking at the parts of the problem that aren’t sexy, and don’t fit neatly into election cycles and Wall Street agendas, the actual environmental issues will not be improved, and will probably continue to get worse due to increasing material consumption, proprietary parts that can’t be recycled, and reliance on aging coal plants and crumbling infrastructure because nobody can build anything new without pissing off the Sierra Club.

But hey, at least the coastal elites can virtue signal their empathy while driving their EVs to the next pro-Hamas rally.

 

[Griz882]

As all of you are well aware, I am not an engineer by any measure. Still, I can’t help but think that EVs are a gap technology that will last about 10 to 15 years until better ways to produce things like hydrogen or biofuels are perfected. The drive behind battery cars is mostly political, in my humble opinion, but in a nation like the US where many people drive 60 or more miles to work each way the EV doesn’t seem realistic. That said, maybe battery technology will catch up to the point where a full charge can take to you about 400 miles AND a recharge will take under 10 minutes?

 

[Hair Warrior]

@sevenhelmet - I think his point was sincere and apt. EVs aren’t currently self-sustaining… environmentally, financially, grid-wise, raw resource-wise, you name it they still have a ways to go. Hence, “novelty” status.

 

[ChuckMK23]

As all of you are well aware, I am not an engineer by any measure. Still, I can’t help but think that EVs are a gap technology that will last about 10 to 15 years until better ways to produce things like hydrogen or biofuels are perfected. The drive behind battery cars is mostly political, in my humble opinion, but in a nation like the US where many people drive 60 or more miles to work each way the EV doesn’t seem realistic. That said, maybe battery technology will catch up to the point where a full charge can take to you about 400 miles AND a recharge will take under 10 minutes?

This is the vision of Toyota. Hydrogen powered ICE on a hybrid electric drive train.