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T-44C - NAV mode / APPR mode usage

satpak77

Registered User
RE: Slides 14 and 26 this link, why not just use APPR mode for ALL approaches ?

I fly a Proline 21 B350 and a few guys at my place advocate this. Just trying to take pieces from other communities and put them to use. I wonder why some advocate NAV mode for non-precisions, when APPR mode will give me VGP (quasi-ILS) and in theory safer and less workload.

Thank You

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:u8crFgfeTzUJ:home.grandecom.net/~remy1492/R1/T-44CFGP.ppt VGP VNAV T-44&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjxVPIiJJboz8nCQZj_gWVCyk55JUbQKqhvk-3THJw65dEP-CH4IABYfWR27DPFEpIEL0uf-1xqor586XTBBW8q7NDBdeF_sDsrvLYtt44DnFpTIbQC3POdvOXx7F5Vo8ZWu-R_&sig=AHIEtbRNSkZaXrLVOPppzzqCGPzffdeSXQ
 

sbeaTm08

Wake up, put a good dip in, crack a cold one
pilot
Training. It would be too easy that way. Instructors want to see the smoke coming out students ears while they are doing the math trying to figure out when is a good distance to descend.
 

webmaster

The Grass is Greener!
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
I wonder why some advocate NAV mode for non-precisions, when APPR mode will give me VGP (quasi-ILS) and in theory safer and less workload.
I don't know the particular capabilities of this system on the T44. WAG time... Is it a limitation that you are presenting potentially inaccurate information to the pilot on a non overlay approach loaded in the FMS? Your "quasi-ILS" in APPR mode could be presenting you with an incorrect VGP while you are executing a VOR approach down to an MDA. How is it deriving that VGP in APPR mode if the system isn't certified for that mode on a VOR or other non precision approach? Once again, I don't know the capabilities or the database of supported approaches on this system you are referencing.
 

usmarinemike

Solidly part of the 42%.
pilot
Contributor
Glad to hear standards haven't changed. ;)
I'm most of the way through the FRS and I have some decent systems available to me, yet I still find myself doing things the hard way just because thats what I was required to do in cnatra. In some cases, I get WORSE results when using the better/more automated system.
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
I'm most of the way through the FRS and I have some decent systems available to me, yet I still find myself doing things the hard way just because thats what I was required to do in cnatra. In some cases, I get WORSE results when using the better/more automated system.
Please tell me that doesn't apply to TACAN point to points.

I knew a guy in the RAG that had done multiple instrument sims before he found out that the system would do all of that for him.
 

usmarinemike

Solidly part of the 42%.
pilot
Contributor
No way. Pencil in the eyeball method is gone. Specifically referring to auto delivery of dumb bombs verses ccip. I get way better results ccip.
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
No way. Pencil in the eyeball method is gone. Specifically referring to auto delivery of dumb bombs verses ccip. I get way better results ccip.
That's because you're doing it wrong. You have to be smooth and stable.

This is a VERY common complaint with new guys. It's simply not a valid issue. AUTO gives either as good or better hits than CCIP.

To prove this once, I took out two solos on a raked range (R2510) and bet them pre brief that I would have a better 1st hit, best hit, and CEP using LST AUTO for all of my drops. They used any form of CCIP that they wanted.

It wasn't even close. The system works better than your eyeball. CCIP takes more skill. That's why AUTO is generally considered kind of cheating in bombing derbys.

I'm guessing that you're having trouble sweetening your DMT/pod lock and letting your parameters slip.

You'll get better at that, and when you do, upgrading to AUTO will give you better hits.
 

Renegade One

Well-Known Member
None
I'm most of the way through the FRS and I have some decent systems available to me, yet I still find myself doing things the hard way just because thats what I was required to do in cnatra. In some cases, I get WORSE results when using the better/more automated system.
Hey, I'm just staying in the discussion because it's informative and interesting. I have NO IDEA about the myriad decent systems available to you today that replaced "pencil and eyeball" for us in earlier cadres.
My "manly response" is that you should remember that you're being trained to be a Naval AVIATOR...not just a Navy Pilot. There has always been a difference, though often unappreciated. You're being trained for "the bad times", when all that magic goes away. If you're ready for that day, everything else...e.g., "the good times"... is gravy, and you'll be farting through silk. You may never have to do it "the hard way"...but if you know how...NICE!
It's something you can tell your grandchildren about...and mightily bored they'll be! ;)
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
Hey, I'm just staying in the discussion because it's informative and interesting. I have NO IDEA about the myriad decent systems available to you today that replaced "pencil and eyeball" for us in earlier cadres.
My "manly response" is that you should remember that you're being trained to be a Naval AVIATOR...not just a Navy Pilot. There has always been a difference, though often unappreciated. You're being trained for "the bad times", when all that magic goes away. If you're ready for that day, everything else...e.g., "the good times"... is gravy, and you'll be farting through silk. You may never have to do it "the hard way"...but if you know how...NICE!
It's something you can tell your grandchildren about...and mightily bored they'll be! ;)

Concur 100%.

Makes me wonder why the new guys can't drop DSL, DIR, or DSL1.

Not that anybody needs to do that hardly ever, but some pilots can't even describe how to do it, or in what situation.

Kids today!!
 

jmcquate

Well-Known Member
Contributor
It's something you can tell your grandchildren about...and mightily bored they'll be! ;)

Worked in "A Bridge too Far" quote.........NICE.
 

Swanee

Self aware since 2014
pilot
Contributor
so did we figure out why you cant use APPR on non precision
The first reply....


You do some stuff a certain way in the training command because that is the way they did it in the Yellow Peril...
 

usmarinemike

Solidly part of the 42%.
pilot
Contributor
That's because you're doing it wrong. You have to be smooth and stable.

This is a VERY common complaint with new guys. It's simply not a valid issue. AUTO gives either as good or better hits than CCIP.

To prove this once, I took out two solos on a raked range (R2510) and bet them pre brief that I would have a better 1st hit, best hit, and CEP using LST AUTO for all of my drops. They used any form of CCIP that they wanted.

It wasn't even close. The system works better than your eyeball. CCIP takes more skill. That's why AUTO is generally considered kind of cheating in bombing derbys.

I'm guessing that you're having trouble sweetening your DMT/pod lock and letting your parameters slip.

You'll get better at that, and when you do, upgrading to AUTO will give you better hits.
I agree wholeheartedly with you. Auto is quite clearly more accurate, but that's predicated on not being a dufus with the lineup.
 

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
I'm assuming that the bomb delivery system in the Harrier is similar to that of the Hornet, and for us, I'd agree with all of HD's comments. First few bomb flights in the RAG, and I think we were all thinking "WTF" after hearing our hits.....as in we had done better manual bombing in the T-45. It's damned good at shacking the target if you have a good designation, but poor HUD boresight, sloppy or rushed designation slewing in the dive, and poor ASL control crush you early on. Not that I have a whole ton of experience, but it got a lot better after a little practice. Now flying fleet jets with ATFLIR, you can have a very good designation prior to rolling in, make minor corrections in the dive, and even with bad parameters and sloppy ASL, you can still shack just about every time. You will never see that kind of consistency with CCIP.

And for R1, I have promised myself that I will get decent at manual bombing prior to cruise for that reason. It isn't in any syllabus anywhere, and I know only a couple people who have really ever used it much if at all, but it seems like a good thing to know. Just need to practice it a bit in the simvfirst so that I don't show my ass or scare anyone out on the range :)
 
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