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Sully agrees with A4s . . .

mtsupilot09

"We lookin fo you. We gon find you!"
It's interesting to me that the American public thinks that all airline pilots make six figure salaries. I confess, it was only after my freshman year in college that I realized the first year salary of a regional turboprop or light jet FO barely crests $25k. It's not a good sign that the guy fueling the planes (me) makes as much as some of the first officers. I guess it's not unlike baseball. The minor league players don't make much and they are always on the road. Then IF they make it to the majors, they start making a more and more. Don't get me wrong, I love this industry and I am immersed in civil aviation 8 hours a day, which is fun. But I'm 22 and single. There are plenty of pilots flying Beech Jets, Lears, and Dash 8s that can barely provide for their families.
 
Yeah my dad who is a ret'd coastie pilot who flew a few times with sully declined to go back to USair a few months ago because of everything they went through after 9/11 and the way they have been treating pilots since
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
I was having this discussion via email with a friend who was furloughed from the regionals. She was going to start at $20k-ish. That's barely enough to live on if you have NO debt and no responsibilities. Never mind student loans, family, etc.

The cab driver who takes you from your hotel to the airport makes better money than that, and he has to REALLY fvck up to kill you.

I think airline pilots, especially the junior ones are underpaid. Yeah you heard that. I am normally anti-union but ALPA has its place. They at least will make concessions when they have to, unlike the UAW who I think would rather see a company go under than take a pay cut.

Maybe some posters up in the airport.. "Your pilot makes $20k a year. How would you like to live on that?"
 
I was having this discussion via email with a friend who was furloughed from the regionals. She was going to start at $20k-ish. That's barely enough to live on if you have NO debt and no responsibilities. Never mind student loans, family, etc.

Maybe some posters up in the airport.. "Your pilot makes $20k a year. How would you like to live on that?"

yeah some of those guys in the regionals aren't even making $20k and if you dont' have military flying experience more than likely you've paid out the butt for your flight training.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
I was having this discussion via email with a friend who was furloughed from the regionals. She was going to start at $20k-ish. That's barely enough to live on if you have NO debt and no responsibilities. Never mind student loans, family, etc.

The cab driver who takes you from your hotel to the airport makes better money than that, and he has to REALLY fvck up to kill you.

I think airline pilots, especially the junior ones are underpaid. Yeah you heard that. I am normally anti-union but ALPA has its place. They at least will make concessions when they have to, unlike the UAW who I think would rather see a company go under than take a pay cut.

Maybe some posters up in the airport.. "Your pilot makes $20k a year. How would you like to live on that?"

How many people would fly regionals if they knew how little the people driving them around made?
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Nobody is making these guys take low paying jobs. They choose to take them on the chance that they'll "make it big" - just like in other fields. We shouldn't feel sorry for them - they know what they're getting into.

Brett
 

Junkball

"I believe in ammunition"
pilot
How many people would fly regionals if they knew how little the people driving them around made?

I think this might work in the opposite way you're getting at. It takes dedication to pursue such a technical occupation for so little compensation, and hopefully the public would recognize that.
 

mtsupilot09

"We lookin fo you. We gon find you!"
There is no other profession that I am aware of that requires so much training and certification and recurrent training that pays as low as airline pilots. A friend of mine flies a Lear 35 out of the airport I work at. He told me yesterday he is thinking about going to pharmacy school. Less training and about 3-5 times the pay. Most charter pilots I know do something on the side. One 135 pilot I know has an aircraft inspection business that is doing well. He makes more doing that than he does flying.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
How many people would fly regionals if they knew how little the people driving them around made?
People basically don't care.

It would probably have little/no effect on the vast gray masses of air travelers .... as they're ONLY concerned about the price of a ticket if they're paying for it themselves -- until the shit hits the fan, of course .... :eek: ... and then they want the "best & brightest" in the cockpit.

But when that happens ... it's too late ... you're stuck w/ the one who 'brung ya ...
:)
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Nobody is making these guys take low paying jobs. They choose to take them on the chance that they'll "make it big" - just like in other fields. We shouldn't feel sorry for them - they know what they're getting into.

Brett

All true. I believe in the market. And labor has it's market. But the market isn't perfect. The only way the airline pilot labor market will control for quality is when planes start to crash because of pilot errors and judgments that can be controlled for with better quality pilots. Today, because of low pay, especially in the commuters, charters, and regionals, where all the civ guys come from, the low pay is driving the more experienced and quality pilots out. Do we have to wait for several high profile accidents for the market to correct due to the cost of accidents and poor public relations driving pay rates up to attract and keep quality pilots?

If a kid talks to me about commercial aviation I almost always refer them to helos. Their pay is going up while mine is going down. Technology is moving faster in vertical flight and their capabilities are expanding. They are home more often and fly shorter legs with more landings, where the real fun and challenge is. Just my two cents. Don't make me turn in my Tailhook card.
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
If a kid talks to me about commercial aviation I almost always refer them to helos. Their pay is going up while mine is going down. Technology is moving faster in vertical flight and their capabilities are expanding. They are home more often and fly shorter legs with more landings, where the real fun and challenge is. Just my two cents. Don't make me turn in my Tailhook card.

The funny thing is when I was starting in aviation (pre-Navy) helos were expensive as hell to start in, there was a lot of "PFT" crap going on with news/traffic choppers and the like and such.

The actual "paying jobs" at entry level paid similar or better than regionals/charter gigs, but had a lot more $$$ invested to get a Helo Commercial with IFR ratings and the minimum hours to get hired. (especialy turbine time).

The problem I saw with being a comm helo guy was that while I made decent $$ for what I did, the glass ceiling was a lot lower on the cash end. While I could have mad $30-40 full time right away, it was hard/impossible to make much more than $70k as a helo guy even with more hours than god, unless you owned your own outfit.

Granted there were a few execptions, but "being rich dudes personal pilot" is a lot harder to come by than "Captain at SWA/NWA/United".

When we were talking about the pay differential then, a lot of the retired/former Army guys (mostly VN era Huey drivers) said the lower pay/pay cap they thought was because the of the relative glut of Army guys either getting out as a W2 with no degree, and they were estatic to make 50-60k and not have to deal with the Army while flying, or were retired and were not counting on flying money alone to pay the bills.

There was VERY LITTLE USN/USMC/USCG represnentation in the smaller regional outfits from my limited observations. The same crusty ol warrants explained that as by the time a "Naval" guy gets out, he's an O-3, maybe up for O-4 with a degree. As much as a lot of the guys wanted to stay flying, the pay cut (lets face it, a senior O3 with big flight pay makes upper 5 figures) was more than most of them could stomach, and they were able to make more $$ using their non-flying experience and degree than their flying skills. That, and I'm not sure what the Armys' committment is now, but then it was not uncommon for a W2 to get out at 26-27 years old. Most Navy/USMC guys are going to be 5 years older than that when they can get out.

I love flying, but a love of flying don't pay my alimony payments and car insurance. Or put food on the table, or pay Sallie Mae. I'm trying to set myself up so when my current contract is up, I can walk if I want and take a low paying job, but who knows what will change between now and then.

And I'm not even that senior, but I'm pulling down over $110k (DH Bonus included) and a good chunk of that's tax free. There is a value on not having to deal with the suck side of the USN, but I'm not sure it's worth a 60% or more pay cut either.
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor

What you say was true several years ago. The upper limit is higher now. There is also a fair amount of hiring going on as those VN Army vets you speak of are all retiring. I do think that even though the upper limit on salaries is better, it is still hard for an O-3/4 to go from Uncle's paycheck to a civ helo flying job. I'd be interested in the experiences of anyone that actually looked at civ helo flying on separating in recent years. Most of the guys I refer to helos are going the civ route. And it is still outrageously expensive. But you can get a job with a VFR Comm ticket where that isn't really possible on the FW side. So you start getting paid to fly sooner.
 
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