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sub life
- Thread starter cougar23
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Bubbleheads unite!
Ok, been eyeing this thread for awhile, mulling it over.... glad to see that a number of ppl have already responded with their experiences and impressions. I did two tours as enlisted in the submarine community (on a TYCOM staff and a fast attack out of Norfolk), I did roughly 2 years on good old SSN 750 before I left for my commissioning program, qualifying and earning my Silver Dolphins and Navy SCUBA Dive pin. As mentioned previously, hands down the comraderie is second to none. Take a look at it this way, EVERYONE volunteers for SUB duty, and on top of that, they get the pick of the litter, EVERYONE scored well or they wouldn't be there, goes for the CONERS and the NUKES. Even if there is friction or the bad apple, you all look out for each other and work hard, the crew is so small, and space being "kinda" limited (I wasn't a boomer living in a Hilton fag mind you
), that you had no other choice. You do cool missions, but a majority of the rest of the time, you are living through the pain of drill set after drill set, working up for a ORSE or TRE, or some yard upkeep. As a blue shirt, I didn't begrudge any of it, was my job, and we got it done. BUT, I consistently was amazed at the beat down that the young ENS received in their upgrading process. These are really smart guys, but they would be put through the ringer. When I got picked up for commission, EVERY single JO pulled me aside, and told me "NOT TO COME BACK", that was how bitter they were. I have looked around for some of them later in my career, and to my knowledge, all got out.
Fast forward a number of years, I am post Fleet aviation tour, and working "gasp" on a submarine staff again (dude, your past always catches up with you).... and I have had ample opportunity to talk to many of the "latest" group of JOs finishing their first sea tour. I would say that the small sampling I have seen are 50/50 on their experiences on their first tour. Some had great COs and tours, others hated it. But of all of them, not a dissenting voice for NOT being proud of what they did. These NUKES are a smart damn bunch, but I think they give SWOs a run for their money on JO beat down and retention problems.
You look at aviation now, the path to DH is questionable (especially in helos from what I have heard) and that is not even bringing in chances for being a skipper! Sub community, they are hemorraghing JOs, my year group peers at work, all he has to do, is basically NOT step on his own crank, and he will more than likey become a CO.
Also, it used to be only 14 officers on board total, including CO and XO, now it is up to 20-22. Why? Well, they figured out that they didn't have nearly enough guys staying in to become DHs, so they pushed more JOs into the Fleet. 9 man is now JO central dude. Flip side, some of the recent DHs have been getting screwed, and have no relief, and are on 4 year tours. The shore tours for my JO peers is limited to 2 years to get them out to the Fleet to relieve these DHs. Nice...
Money is not an issue for them either, bonuses as mentioned before, plus signing on contract for the extra $$$.... They get well paid, but aviation catched up and surpasses them in the end (maybe not cumulative, but still it is nice).
I am not going to say one community is better than the other, because we need all types to keep Big Navy running. I still to this day think that being an OOD on the sub would be one of the coolest and rewarding achievements. I still vividly recall the times spent as lookout with just the OOD and I up on the conn, at night, not a single light on, and thinking, "damn, all this **** is worth it"..... Every community has those moments, where all the pain disappears, and the joy of the quals and standing a watch all come together.
But, to not sugar coat it, going NUKE SUBS is a hard road, and those guys are pretty damn smart. Lots of studying, boards, and practical knowlege through Nuke School and Prototype (Steve can shed some light on the joys of that if you are interested). Then off to the boat to qualify. From direct observation, be prepared for a lot of time at sea, as with ALL communities, we are doing more with less. And maintenance is always an issue.
Ok, career progression, rough timeline:
Nukey School (6 months)
Prototype (6 months)
Sub School (1-2 months, I think shorter)
First JO Sea Tour (3 years, maybe 30 months)
First Shore Tour (2 years, no longer than that)
--- Decision point, get out or stay in. If you took the contract (bonus) you may owe time. Two things happen at this point (NOW):
1) IA BILLET, dude, you are going to Iraq or Afghanistan (1 year and get out)
2) Super JO tour (2 years to finish commitment and get out)
3) Staying in for DH, got to DH school (depending on your Engineer's Exam on your first tour, depends on what job you get, NAV, ENG, WEPS, etc) (3 years)
Second Shore Tour (2-3year, now an O4) Trying to screen for XO
Third Sea Tour (XO, 2 years)
Third Shore Tour (Staff, whatever, 2-3 years, make O5 screen for command?)
Fourth Sea Tour (CO, 2 years)
Somewhere in there you have Joint Tours, and of course working on Masters, et al.... The jobs are varied for your first tour, frankly, I don't know them all, but you will rotate. Also, you are stuck back aft running the plant until the senior bubbas leave, and you can move forward and be the OOD. You qualifying doesn't get you out of the engine room.
My advice, go visit an NROTC unit, and find the SUB JO stationed there, and see if he has time to discuss his time in the community, that way you are getting it right from someone who just came off a boat.
In the end, just boils down to whether you want to drive boats, or fly planes. I am lucky and got to do both, and value my time in each community. If I had to decide, I would personally go aviation, we have our issues, but for the most part, while we go through difficult times, I think we are a bit more laid back and smile/have fun getting the mission accomplished. If that means anything to you.
John
Ok, been eyeing this thread for awhile, mulling it over.... glad to see that a number of ppl have already responded with their experiences and impressions. I did two tours as enlisted in the submarine community (on a TYCOM staff and a fast attack out of Norfolk), I did roughly 2 years on good old SSN 750 before I left for my commissioning program, qualifying and earning my Silver Dolphins and Navy SCUBA Dive pin. As mentioned previously, hands down the comraderie is second to none. Take a look at it this way, EVERYONE volunteers for SUB duty, and on top of that, they get the pick of the litter, EVERYONE scored well or they wouldn't be there, goes for the CONERS and the NUKES. Even if there is friction or the bad apple, you all look out for each other and work hard, the crew is so small, and space being "kinda" limited (I wasn't a boomer living in a Hilton fag mind you
), that you had no other choice. You do cool missions, but a majority of the rest of the time, you are living through the pain of drill set after drill set, working up for a ORSE or TRE, or some yard upkeep. As a blue shirt, I didn't begrudge any of it, was my job, and we got it done. BUT, I consistently was amazed at the beat down that the young ENS received in their upgrading process. These are really smart guys, but they would be put through the ringer. When I got picked up for commission, EVERY single JO pulled me aside, and told me "NOT TO COME BACK", that was how bitter they were. I have looked around for some of them later in my career, and to my knowledge, all got out.Fast forward a number of years, I am post Fleet aviation tour, and working "gasp" on a submarine staff again (dude, your past always catches up with you).... and I have had ample opportunity to talk to many of the "latest" group of JOs finishing their first sea tour. I would say that the small sampling I have seen are 50/50 on their experiences on their first tour. Some had great COs and tours, others hated it. But of all of them, not a dissenting voice for NOT being proud of what they did. These NUKES are a smart damn bunch, but I think they give SWOs a run for their money on JO beat down and retention problems.
You look at aviation now, the path to DH is questionable (especially in helos from what I have heard) and that is not even bringing in chances for being a skipper! Sub community, they are hemorraghing JOs, my year group peers at work, all he has to do, is basically NOT step on his own crank, and he will more than likey become a CO.
Also, it used to be only 14 officers on board total, including CO and XO, now it is up to 20-22. Why? Well, they figured out that they didn't have nearly enough guys staying in to become DHs, so they pushed more JOs into the Fleet. 9 man is now JO central dude. Flip side, some of the recent DHs have been getting screwed, and have no relief, and are on 4 year tours. The shore tours for my JO peers is limited to 2 years to get them out to the Fleet to relieve these DHs. Nice...
Money is not an issue for them either, bonuses as mentioned before, plus signing on contract for the extra $$$.... They get well paid, but aviation catched up and surpasses them in the end (maybe not cumulative, but still it is nice).
I am not going to say one community is better than the other, because we need all types to keep Big Navy running. I still to this day think that being an OOD on the sub would be one of the coolest and rewarding achievements. I still vividly recall the times spent as lookout with just the OOD and I up on the conn, at night, not a single light on, and thinking, "damn, all this **** is worth it"..... Every community has those moments, where all the pain disappears, and the joy of the quals and standing a watch all come together.
But, to not sugar coat it, going NUKE SUBS is a hard road, and those guys are pretty damn smart. Lots of studying, boards, and practical knowlege through Nuke School and Prototype (Steve can shed some light on the joys of that if you are interested). Then off to the boat to qualify. From direct observation, be prepared for a lot of time at sea, as with ALL communities, we are doing more with less. And maintenance is always an issue.
Ok, career progression, rough timeline:
Nukey School (6 months)
Prototype (6 months)
Sub School (1-2 months, I think shorter)
First JO Sea Tour (3 years, maybe 30 months)
First Shore Tour (2 years, no longer than that)
--- Decision point, get out or stay in. If you took the contract (bonus) you may owe time. Two things happen at this point (NOW):
1) IA BILLET, dude, you are going to Iraq or Afghanistan (1 year and get out)
2) Super JO tour (2 years to finish commitment and get out)
3) Staying in for DH, got to DH school (depending on your Engineer's Exam on your first tour, depends on what job you get, NAV, ENG, WEPS, etc) (3 years)
Second Shore Tour (2-3year, now an O4) Trying to screen for XO
Third Sea Tour (XO, 2 years)
Third Shore Tour (Staff, whatever, 2-3 years, make O5 screen for command?)
Fourth Sea Tour (CO, 2 years)
Somewhere in there you have Joint Tours, and of course working on Masters, et al.... The jobs are varied for your first tour, frankly, I don't know them all, but you will rotate. Also, you are stuck back aft running the plant until the senior bubbas leave, and you can move forward and be the OOD. You qualifying doesn't get you out of the engine room.
My advice, go visit an NROTC unit, and find the SUB JO stationed there, and see if he has time to discuss his time in the community, that way you are getting it right from someone who just came off a boat.
In the end, just boils down to whether you want to drive boats, or fly planes. I am lucky and got to do both, and value my time in each community. If I had to decide, I would personally go aviation, we have our issues, but for the most part, while we go through difficult times, I think we are a bit more laid back and smile/have fun getting the mission accomplished. If that means anything to you.
John
Couldnt have said it better. JO life sucks, but it is the little things in the sub world that makes it worth it. Like being a lookout in the middle of the night in the middle of the ocean, doing the secret missions and looking out the scope and seeing some really cool crap. I enjoyed my time on subs, I am glad that I did it, but my time was good because I had an awesome CO and some really great JOs. I will do everything I can to not go back because now I am married and there is no such thing as a schedule for fast-attacks subs. Submariners are a league of thier own and I proud to be one, but 4 years is enough for this sailor.
That was some good info. I don't share the level of experience of web or hour rocket. I've been in about 7 subs (3 boomers and 4 fast attack) ->just 3 hr tours
The biggest piece of advice I can give to you is that it is all personal preference. I have several friends that joined the navy, and dreaded (with passion) sea tours. I have other friends that got back, and couldn't WAIT to get back out to sea. Don't get me wrong, if you join the navy, be ready to go to the boat. But the point i am making is that as individuals, we are all in different situations and possess different characters (married, single, adventurous, ambitious, etc). It is these characteristics and our personalities that will ultimitately dictate what we deem as a fulfilling and enjoyable career or MOS.
The best advice I can give is explore your options. Many officer recruiters will take you on board a boat or sub (probably not a boomer in this day and age) and let you gather an idea of what it is like, as well as communicate with the personnel onboard. Make it known that you are applying for BDCP, and need to do this to help you make a decision.
As you mentioned, the USNA would allow you to "sample" the platter if you will. Another viable route is NROTC. Your freshman/sophomore summer you spend a month, interacting with all aspects of the navy (1 week aviation, 1 week surface, 1 week subs, 1 week marine), all prior to your commitment.
Hope this helps. Good Luck!!
The biggest piece of advice I can give to you is that it is all personal preference. I have several friends that joined the navy, and dreaded (with passion) sea tours. I have other friends that got back, and couldn't WAIT to get back out to sea. Don't get me wrong, if you join the navy, be ready to go to the boat. But the point i am making is that as individuals, we are all in different situations and possess different characters (married, single, adventurous, ambitious, etc). It is these characteristics and our personalities that will ultimitately dictate what we deem as a fulfilling and enjoyable career or MOS.
The best advice I can give is explore your options. Many officer recruiters will take you on board a boat or sub (probably not a boomer in this day and age) and let you gather an idea of what it is like, as well as communicate with the personnel onboard. Make it known that you are applying for BDCP, and need to do this to help you make a decision.
As you mentioned, the USNA would allow you to "sample" the platter if you will. Another viable route is NROTC. Your freshman/sophomore summer you spend a month, interacting with all aspects of the navy (1 week aviation, 1 week surface, 1 week subs, 1 week marine), all prior to your commitment.
Hope this helps. Good Luck!!
The Chief said:
Oh brother you should talk to them when they are drinking. Hes got shore leave stories that make the stuff I hear from SNA's tame.
First off, my roommate is a former Bubblehead. Spent all of his time on the Evolved 688 class of Attack Boats and he loved it. He also spent most of his time working with a lot of stuff hes not allowed to talk about to just about anybody, this goes beyond OPSEC.
Plus they are two very differnt communities with very differnt personality types, him hes very soft spoken but with a twisted sense of humor and apparently you get a lot of that from the community. Also one thing he said you can not overstress in the Sub world is the ability to get along with other people because subs due to the nature of being underwater make minesweepers look comfortable. Ive pretty much come to the conclusion of many a beer and pool night that hot racking sucks! If you want his Email Id be glad to send it to you, just PM me some time.
Sarpedon
ET2(SS/DV)
a typical boomer day
I just did a Boomer patrol last summer. Here's what it's like.
0500 - wake up, eat breakfast
0530 - go relieve the watch (for me, it was Reactor Technician. I stood in part of the engineroom for 6 hours and took logs on some meters and panels. For a junior officer, you'd be standing Engineering Officer of the Watch, the first officer watchstation you'd qualify. You sit at a desk in a small control room and give orders to three panel operators who control various aspects of the reactor plant.)
1130 - get relieved by the next guy, go eat lunch
1200 - go grab some books and study about how the boat works, and/or go up to control and assist the Officer of the Deck and learn about what he does. (this is when you're still qualifying. Once you're done qualifying after about a year, you'll have lots of administrative collateral duties, like signing lots of paperwork for your division, or maybe monitoring some maintenance).
1700 - eat dinner, and go study some more. If you have time, take a nap
2300 - wake up, eat midrats, and start all over
Submarine days work on a 18 hour rotation rather than a 24 hour rotation, so your sleep cycles get kinda messed up. I hope this is answers your question. Keep in mind though this is a Boomer day... I've never stepped foot on a fast attack sub so I don't know how they work (all I know is they're a lot smaller than boomers
). Best of luck to you!
I just did a Boomer patrol last summer. Here's what it's like.
0500 - wake up, eat breakfast
0530 - go relieve the watch (for me, it was Reactor Technician. I stood in part of the engineroom for 6 hours and took logs on some meters and panels. For a junior officer, you'd be standing Engineering Officer of the Watch, the first officer watchstation you'd qualify. You sit at a desk in a small control room and give orders to three panel operators who control various aspects of the reactor plant.)
1130 - get relieved by the next guy, go eat lunch
1200 - go grab some books and study about how the boat works, and/or go up to control and assist the Officer of the Deck and learn about what he does. (this is when you're still qualifying. Once you're done qualifying after about a year, you'll have lots of administrative collateral duties, like signing lots of paperwork for your division, or maybe monitoring some maintenance).
1700 - eat dinner, and go study some more. If you have time, take a nap
2300 - wake up, eat midrats, and start all over
Submarine days work on a 18 hour rotation rather than a 24 hour rotation, so your sleep cycles get kinda messed up. I hope this is answers your question. Keep in mind though this is a Boomer day... I've never stepped foot on a fast attack sub so I don't know how they work (all I know is they're a lot smaller than boomers
). Best of luck to you!
Sub King
Member
The short and sweet from a Nuke Mechanic on Fast Attacks out of Norfolk now just another NUB in the early stages of Primary:
-4.3 years on the Scranton
-5 ORSE's and 3 TRE's
-Two 6 month deployments
-One 4.5 month surge deployment because another Boat was broke
-More (1-2) weekers than I remember
-Lots of fun in ports
-Excellent comraderie
-I'm sure this applies to many facets of the Navy, but the bureacracy and difficulty in doing business within Naval Nuclear Power is ridiculous
-Good pay as a nuke, especially as a Nuke Officer
-INPORT DUTY DAYS REALLY SUCKED 3 section duty most of the time but every once in a while Port and Stbd. I'm pretty sure fleet aviators can vouch for me in saying that their inport duty days are few and far between.
Sub Officer was my second choice behind aviation, but I would have only chosen it had I failed the NAMI physical. And I'll end by saying this......Except for overseas port calls, I had more fun in the short 6 week API course than all of the time onboard a Sub.
-4.3 years on the Scranton
-5 ORSE's and 3 TRE's
-Two 6 month deployments
-One 4.5 month surge deployment because another Boat was broke
-More (1-2) weekers than I remember
-Lots of fun in ports
-Excellent comraderie
-I'm sure this applies to many facets of the Navy, but the bureacracy and difficulty in doing business within Naval Nuclear Power is ridiculous
-Good pay as a nuke, especially as a Nuke Officer
-INPORT DUTY DAYS REALLY SUCKED 3 section duty most of the time but every once in a while Port and Stbd. I'm pretty sure fleet aviators can vouch for me in saying that their inport duty days are few and far between.
Sub Officer was my second choice behind aviation, but I would have only chosen it had I failed the NAMI physical. And I'll end by saying this......Except for overseas port calls, I had more fun in the short 6 week API course than all of the time onboard a Sub.
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