• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

Stupid Questions about Naval Aviation (Part 3)

picklesuit

Dirty Hinge
pilot
Contributor
I really don't understand your anger. Your job as a flight instructor is to instruct. Getting angry at a student just doesn't help instruct.

I can get your frustration maybe if it was directed towards yourself. I remember getting frustrated at myself because I could not explain something in the way a student understood. But it was not the students fault for not understanding.

Oh, and that little thing about no filter. That is just an excuse you tell when you know you are an arsehole.
It’s a student’s fault when they show up unprepared, fail to follow basic directions, and continue to make the same mistakes after multiple corrections. It’s also their fault when they can’t mentally handle the basics (like breaking toward the fixed wing airport instead of the helo airport) and completely break down when any stress is applied.

IIRC this particular specimen attrited...

And I have no problem being an asshole. It’s served me well to this point, why change it?
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
It’s a student’s fault when they show up unprepared, fail to follow basic directions, and continue to make the same mistakes after multiple corrections. It’s also their fault when they can’t mentally handle the basics (like breaking toward the fixed wing airport instead of the helo airport) and completely break down when any stress is applied.
Kind of a non-sequitur that adds nothing to the discussion, but I just wanted to add it is his fault he didn't lock the garage...

It_is_his_fault_he_didn_t_lock_the_garage_Ferris_Bueller.gif
 

HokiePilot

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
If being an arsehole works for you, I guess that's fine. But it didn't help this student. Could this student have gone on to be a Naval Aviator if you spent your effort instructing as opposed to getting frustrated and angry. We will never know.

Why was it the students fault. Was he/she not trying? That, and showing up not prepared are the only things you can fault the student for. Everything after that is your job.

Did you ever ask the student during the debrief why he/she tried to break the wrong direction? That would have been useful.

Of course, some students show up prepared and still can't can't learn. The student did all they can. That's no reason to get mad at them. Its sad. I remember one student who DORed the day after flying with me. I still wish I could have instructed that flight differently.

As a flight instructor, your job is to instruct. You also have a side job of being a safety pilot to be able to recover from mistakes. And yes, some responsibility to evaluate. But your first job is to instruct. Unfortunately, I don't think the Navy did a great job of of teaching instructors to instruct. They just assume that if you can fly the plane you can instruct to. I know this first had as an instructor at the HITU. We spent all our time getting the IUTs up to speed flying the helo. Some briefing items on flights were common student errors, but how to instruct a specific maneuver was never a thing.

I learned much of this in my off time from a friend who I met there. He spent a few years in the Royal New Zealand Air Force and went through their Central Flying School where they actually teach instructional techniques. I learned all sorts of things from him. For example, don't ask yes/no questions. You will always get a yes regardless. If you are demoing adverse yaw, don't ask a student if they saw the nose move left. Instead, before the maneuver, tell them you want them to watch what direction the nose moves. Ask them afterwards what direction they saw the nose move. Maybe next time you can have them follow along on the controls as you put in rudder to counteract it. Ask them was it a lot or a little. Here's the thing, it doesn't matter what the answer is. What ever they say is the right answer for that person.

It's attitudes like yours that I wish I could have attrited out of the HITU, but that was not our mandate. The most we could do was give the Squadron Stan O a heads up. And yes, I did.

Or maybe you just wanted to complain about the next generation to your friends on facebook.
 

ea6bflyr

Working Class Bum
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
It’s a student’s fault when they show up unprepared, fail to follow basic directions, and continue to make the same mistakes after multiple corrections. It’s also their fault when they can’t mentally handle the basics (like breaking toward the fixed wing airport instead of the helo airport) and completely break down when any stress is applied.

IIRC this particular specimen attrited...

And I have no problem being an asshole. It’s served me well to this point, why change it?
Are you Instructing? or Evaluating?

When I was an instructor in advanced, I saw it as my opportunity to TEACH every students at least one thing during every hop.

And as @HokiePilot stated, the de-brief is where ALL the best 0kts, 1g training occurs.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
We spent all our time getting the IUTs up to speed flying the helo. Some briefing items on flights were common student errors, but how to instruct a specific maneuver was never a thing.

I know we've been down this road before, but it irks me to hear this. While it was before Pickle's time, the above was not my experience as either an IUT or as a FITU IP at TW-5. Instructor techniques often started as early as the NATOPS stage, which was often over the IUT's head, but hearing the repetition of techniques had a cumulative effect.

I can't remember when Pickle's timeline coicided with the FITU OICs that I knew and took over as I was leaving or after I left, but both subscribed to teaching the techniques to keep the IPs out of trouble and to help studs learn stuff along with teaching the actual stick skills of the airframe.

Were there weak ITU IPs? Of course, but I'm sorry to hear the HITU wasn't following the same path.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
This thread is really blowing up instead of building bridges.

giphy.gif
 

HokiePilot

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
I know we've been down this road before, but it irks me to hear this. While it was before Pickle's time, the above was not my experience as either an IUT or as a FITU IP at TW-5. Instructor techniques often started as early as the NATOPS stage, which was often over the IUT's head, but hearing the repetition of techniques had a cumulative effect.

I can't remember when Pickle's timeline coicided with the FITU OICs that I knew and took over as I was leaving or after I left, but both subscribed to teaching the techniques to keep the IPs out of trouble and to help studs learn stuff along with teaching the actual stick skills of the airframe.

Were there weak ITU IPs? Of course, but I'm sorry to hear the HITU wasn't following the same path.

I should have worded that differently. We tried to give as much instruction in instructional technique, but the curriculum did not include it.

Towards the end of my tour there, the commodore started emphasizing instructional technique, but no resources (flight hours) we put behind it.

Now I was never a Bravo instructor. I know they have flights to get those instructors up to speed. As I was leaving, the plan was to move those flights to the HITU. I think that was a better strategy to improve stan between the squadrons and work with instructional technique.
 

picklesuit

Dirty Hinge
pilot
Contributor
If being an arsehole works for you, I guess that's fine. But it didn't help this student. Could this student have gone on to be a Naval Aviator if you spent your effort instructing as opposed to getting frustrated and angry. We will never know.

Why was it the students fault. Was he/she not trying? That, and showing up not prepared are the only things you can fault the student for. Everything after that is your job.

Did you ever ask the student during the debrief why he/she tried to break the wrong direction? That would have been useful.

Of course, some students show up prepared and still can't can't learn. The student did all they can. That's no reason to get mad at them. Its sad. I remember one student who DORed the day after flying with me. I still wish I could have instructed that flight differently.

As a flight instructor, your job is to instruct. You also have a side job of being a safety pilot to be able to recover from mistakes. And yes, some responsibility to evaluate. But your first job is to instruct. Unfortunately, I don't think the Navy did a great job of of teaching instructors to instruct. They just assume that if you can fly the plane you can instruct to. I know this first had as an instructor at the HITU. We spent all our time getting the IUTs up to speed flying the helo. Some briefing items on flights were common student errors, but how to instruct a specific maneuver was never a thing.

I learned much of this in my off time from a friend who I met there. He spent a few years in the Royal New Zealand Air Force and went through their Central Flying School where they actually teach instructional techniques. I learned all sorts of things from him. For example, don't ask yes/no questions. You will always get a yes regardless. If you are demoing adverse yaw, don't ask a student if they saw the nose move left. Instead, before the maneuver, tell them you want them to watch what direction the nose moves. Ask them afterwards what direction they saw the nose move. Maybe next time you can have them follow along on the controls as you put in rudder to counteract it. Ask them was it a lot or a little. Here's the thing, it doesn't matter what the answer is. What ever they say is the right answer for that person.

It's attitudes like yours that I wish I could have attrited out of the HITU, but that was not our mandate. The most we could do was give the Squadron Stan O a heads up. And yes, I did.

Or maybe you just wanted to complain about the next generation to your friends on facebook.
Being an IP requires both instructing AND evaluating. I taught my ass off every flight (even the ones with the fucking Saudis) and made every student better. There is a standard we hold them to, and when they don’t meet that standard, they don’t get to fly. Reread my post. I never showed Ensign Fucktard I was frustrated with him (thus the FB post venting to my friends, many of which are/were IP’s).

I taught his non-flying ass to the very end, until he put us both in enough danger I had to take the controls. I then landed the plane, used some properly applied nicotine, and gave the student a thorough debrief and signaled his inability to progress properly through the program via a Marginal gradesheet.

I’m sure paying attention to detail is important, even in the HITU, but maybe you should try harder.

I’m admittedly an asshole. I’m not proud of it, I’m not ashamed of it, it’s just who I am. I don’t sugarcoat the truth for someone because they have feelings. My students got honest, direct feedback and it made them better.

I had 21 on-wings through my tenure as an IP. Some were rockstars, most were average, a few were untalented and slow to learn. I taught them all, and made them better. They all are winged aviators in the Fleet now. Statistically 2-3 of them should have attrited or DOR’d. That’s the number I’m most proud of: 21/21.

I don’t understand where you think you have some magical guide on what the “right” personality is for instructing. You say you want to attrite someone from the HITU because they had a bad “attitude” according to you? What is the goal? Some sort of homogeneous mass of nice guys running around being a friend to the student?

Every student learns differently. That was the great thing about having a group of IP’s with different personalities. Some needed a nice guy. Some needed a kick in the ass. They all needed a preparation for flying later in their career with different kinds of people.

More importantly the ones who SHOULDN’T be flying in the military needed identified early on when the flight hours are plentiful and cheap and the aircraft forgiving, not later in the pipeline when there are less assets and it costs more.

Passing the trash is/was the largest complaint I got from your side of Langley Road (where low NSS’s go to languish) and from the rest of the Advanced pipelines.

I identified a student who shouldn’t be flying with us, two other IP’s, a Stan X pilot, and the Skipper all agreed in the course of two Unsats, an 88 and an 89 ride, as well as the Commodore when he signed the paperwork attrition said student.

But I’m sure my being frustrated I couldn’t get through to the future SWO was somehow the reason he failed out...
 

HokiePilot

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Hey man. I don't know you. I certainly never have flown with you. The only data I have is what your written on here. Your previous posts have not shed the greatest light on your instructional techniques.

Your latest post includes some good information. A 21 of 21 record is certainly something to be pound of. And shows you instructed those students. I just don't understand the bravado of the previous posts.

My onwing passing rate results in a divide by zero error. But I'm still claiming that non of my on wings have ever failed an event ever.

I still don't get your getting angry at a student for him/her not being good. And then posting on facebook. And then posting on here.

And being an arsehole is a personal choice. You just don't want to change.
 
Top