STUPID questions about life as a Naval Flight Officer (NFO)

[goplay234]

P-3 Fo's

OK, so I select in about two weeks and am undecided. I have heard a lot of great things about the "P-3 lifestyle". You know, Car Per Diem and all that stuff. What I really want to know is what does a P-3 FO actually do other then Navigate (obviously). Every P-3 bubba I have talked to can't stop talking about their wonderful trips but never talk about their jobs. It leads me to believe that it isn't that great. If any of you could help me out, that would be great. Thanks.

 

[zab1001]

(I'm a Pilot, BUT...)

The are Navigator/Communicators (NAV/COMM) and there are Tactical Coordinators (TACCOs).

NFOs start as Navs, doing Nav ***** work. Extremely important job, tough, thankless, easy to f*ck up. Tactical communications, navigation, fixes, tactical logs, etc. etc. Also serves as a "back-up" or "voice of reason" if he has enough situational awareness in tactical environments to keep his head in the game.

Nav's are always studying to become TACCOs. TACCO runs the tactical picture. Tells flight (Pilots) where the plane needs to be. Coordinates all sensor data from his enlisted operators onboard (acoustic/esm/electr-optic) to find, follow, and stay in postion to kill bad guy (underwater, on the surface, or ground-pounding). TACCO, generally, runs the weapons systems and is responsible for target coordination/weaps employment.

FOs in P-3s generally either LOVE their jobs or hate them, and they are usually EXCELLENT at it or AWFUL. The awful guys are usually found out early in the Nav game and get sent out of aviation.

I've known plenty of guys who were awesome TACCOs who hated the job, but sucked it up, and they went on to have the best tactical aircrews.

You select in 2 weeks and you haven't been talking in-depth to every Instructor from every community as much as possible? Start talking man! Get some answers in person. When they switch topics to trips/lifestyle, swtich it back to work. It's in your hands.

 

[webmaster]

For all the good natured **** we give NFOs, the TACCOs and NAVCOMMs are essential in making the flights and missions a success. Upgrading as a 3P and 2P I was marginally aware of most of what they did, but in many cases took their job for granted. When I took over a crew on last deployment as PPC, my appreciation for a **** hot NAV, and a TACCO that knows how to employ the platform, definitely went through the roof.

As zab said, you have the two categories, those that enjoy their job, and those that hate it. As discussed elsewhere, one of the problems we have, is that we cover so many diverse missions, that it is an upgrading nightmare, and in addition you have to maintain your competency (quals) in many of the missions. Being a guest PPC on many crews working through quals, I have seen some crews that have had their **** in one sock, and others that were just painful to be a part of. Where am I going with this? The TACCOs/NAVCOMMS that knew their job, and joked and had fun, made all the missions much more enjoyable.... the bitter ones that couldn't find their ways tactically out of a wet paper bag were usually never given a crew or marginalized and sent on their way.

ditto and reemphasize what zab is saying, go corner a P3 NFO like a trapped rat (and say "SET FIVE"), and make them tell you about their job and experiences.

My best memories that I am taking away from my first P3 Fleet tour are great times with the crew, of which my TACCO and NAV were integral parts of.....

 

[NozeMan]

Webmaster

What do you mean when you say some NFO's are "given a crew"? Do TACCOs get to be a PPC as well, or is that a position that only a pilot can hold?

The Noze

 

[zab1001]

Webmaster isnt on, and I'm bored so I'll field it.

"Given a crew" is a term used when a qualified PPC or TACCO is assigned permanently to a Combat Aircrew. Sort of a nod to the PPC running the safety-of-flight and front end of the plane (2 co-pilots, 2 flight engineers) and the TACCO getting the tube (Nav, 3 sensor operators).

PPC is the senior Pilot position only. TACCO is senior NFO.

BUT, of those two, one is the designated Mission Commander, usually whoever qualified in his postion first. Bottom line on all tactical decisions comes down to that guy ("Should we shoot? Can we shoot?").

 

[goplay234]

I have talked with P-3 guys. One guy could stop talking about per diem. Well, that's great but I want to know about the JOB you know?? I talked to another guy and he said he hated it because the mission went away. I don't know. Basically, I get airsick a lot and want that to stop. I like the P-3 lifestyle (obviously) but the job really doesn't sound appealing. On the other hand, I don't want to puke my guts out every time I fly. Let me know what you think.

 

[zab1001]

So you talked to 2 guys. Okay, thats a start.

(A) I'm sure there's more P-3 NFOs than that where you are. Start getting aggressive. There aren't any who post on here on any kind of regular basis and the only guys who have firsthand P-3 knowledge on this board are two Pilots. As I've said time and time again, people who don't know firsthand can't tell you for sure.
(B) Mission went away...uh...I dunno, we flew our a$$es off in my three years. Yes, there still are subs to track, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. No, it isn't the heyday of the Cold War, but those guys weren't doing overland and ASUW missions either...Given that the Fleet is gonna start losing airframes and personnel, that means more work for who/what is left.
(C) Airsickness...tranists at altitude are fine, but there's a chance you will get sick even in the P-3. Sh!tty air conditioning at 200 feet, yanking around to stay on top of the target, with pretty much zero attitude reference can make a guy puke easily. Add CAD smoke from firing buoys internally and the smell of your FE's secret recipe chili bubblin in a crock pot...

 

[Flash]

No P-3 FO's on the board? Where is the love for a former EP-3 type Zab? I guess your right, I would not want people thinking I came from VP land.

To partially answer your question about being a FO in the P-3, it is a pretty sweet job when you get down and think about it. While the flying is a bit boring compared to Tacair most of the time (which is a pretty good thing for the airsickness thing), it is still pretty cool. I got to see and do some pretty cool stuff when I flew the EP-3, and flying that ugly abomination is a bit less exciting than flying a regular P-3. While there are a lot of missions that the P-3 does nowadays (some would argue too many), none of them are going away any time soon. The Navy was talking about refocusing on ASW but it remains to be seen if the P-3's will give up their overland missions. Flying in support of ground troops of Spec Ops guys boring, not if you ask those who have done it (and yes I have).

There are several personality types in P-3's, just like anywhere else, and you ran into two of them.

Per Diem Wh$#@- This type who thinks that per diem is the be all to end all. A common side effect of this type is the tendancy to stay locked up in their hotel/BOQ room eating cold cuts for every meal and forgoing any chance to hang out with the rest of the crew because it will cost them too much money ("but is only $20!!" "No, I should really save my per diem and I need to clip my toenails tonight anyways"). I do not kid when I say that there were some guys who would never go out in town or hang out with the rest of the crew an entire deployment, ever. What the hell they eventually did with all that money they saved I haven't a clue.

The Whiney little B#@%- This guy or gal was usually abused as a Nav or 3P but took it a little too seriously (every Nav or 3P gets beat down). The problem usually goes a little deeper than that though. For some strange reason, the fact that they have to work 18 hour days (even though they would have the next 3 off) is just so unfair. Their frat buddies/former roomates/brother-in-law, only have to work 8 and the get paid so much more and they don't have to spend 6 months overseas. And why are they doing all this menial work like dragging this huge crypto box to the plane. WHY THE HELL DID YOU JOIN THE NAVY???!!!!

I had a blast in my old EP-3 squadron and if you have the right attitude anyone can. All you have to do is look down at one of those small boys you fly by and say to yourself "I could be a SWO".

 

[zab1001]

Flash: "No P-3 FO's on the board? Where is the love for a former EP-3 type Zab? I guess your right, I would not want people thinking I came from VP land. "

Yeah, I should have specified that, I meant no VP FO's...oops.

If this guy really does get airsick easily, then I think he should go VQ, EP-3 or E-6.

"There are several personality types in P-3's, just like anywhere else, and you ran into two of them.
Per Diem Wh$#@- This type who thinks that per diem is the be all to end all. A common side effect of this type is the tendancy to stay locked up in their hotel/BOQ room eating cold cuts for every meal and forgoing any chance to hang out with the rest of the crew because it will cost them too much money ("but is only $20!!" "No, I should really save my per diem and I need to clip my toenails tonight anyways"). I do not kid when I say that there were some guys who would never go out in town or hang out with the rest of the crew an entire deployment, ever. What the hell they eventually did with all that money they saved I haven't a clue."

Yeah join the Navy, see the world...from a hotel window. "What do you MEAN you don't want a bath at a Geisha house????"

(self-censorship on here gets tougher by the day..."memorieeeeeeessss")

"The Whiney little B#@%- This guy or gal was usually abused as a Nav or 3P but took it a little too seriously (every Nav or 3P gets beat down). The problem usually goes a little deeper than that though. For some strange reason, the fact that they have to work 18 hour days (even though they would have the next 3 off) is just so unfair. Their frat buddies/former roomates/brother-in-law, only have to work 8 and the get paid so much more and they don't have to spend 6 months overseas. And why are they doing all this menial work like dragging this huge crypto box to the plane. WHY THE HELL DID YOU JOIN THE NAVY???!!!!"

Which makes qualifying that much sweeter, nothin to carry, nothin to study...ahhhhhh

"I had a blast in my old EP-3 squadron and if you have the right attitude anyone can. All you have to do is look down at one of those small boys you fly by and say to yourself "I could be a SWO".

When I was a 3P, the Nav and I taped pictures of SWOs and ships inside the crypto boxes so we'd remember how bad it could REALLY be.

 

[goplay234]

OK, so three questions. What is the percentage breakdown for FO's in the command. How many get P-3's, EP-3's, and E-6's respectively. How long is training in San Antonio? And is all the FO does in the beginning is Airnavs? Is there any tactical stuff to do or are you bound to your Nav table? Let me know.
Thanks.
--Goplay

 

[Flash]

OK, so three questions. What is the percentage breakdown for FO's in the command. How many get P-3's, EP-3's, and E-6's respectively. How long is training in San Antonio? And is all the FO does in the beginning is Airnavs? Is there any tactical stuff to do or are you bound to your Nav table? Let me know.
Thanks.
--Goplay

There are 3 pilots and 2 NFO's in P-3 and E-6 crews, with a total of about 60 fliers total in those squadrons. There are 3 pilots and 3 NFO's in EP-3's, with about 65-70 fliers in the squadron.

Training in San Anton took 6 months when I went through 7 years ago, and I don't think it has changed that much (they took out celestial nav I think). When I selected there were 10 guyswho graduated with me, 7 got P-3's, 2 got EP-3's and 1 got E-6's. That was about average, you have to ask someone there what the breakdown is now.

As for the tactical stuff, all Nav's move up to the senior tactical postion on their respective planes.

 

[goplay234]

OK, so other than hunting subs, what other missions do P-3's do? Please help, I have to select in about three days...

 

[zab1001]

OK, so other than hunting subs, what other missions do P-3's do? Please help, I have to select in about three days...

ASW, Anti-Surface Warfare, Surveillance, Intel, Spec Ops.

Weapons: Torpedoes, SLAM-ER missile, Harpoon missile, Maverick missile, Depth bombs, GP bombs

(very general description)

You really need to sit down with a P-3 guy and talk about each mission and how they work. If you have any pointed questions you can't get an answer to, post them.

 

[USMC1775]

What is your day like, mission like, deployments, traing and general life style?

 

[zab1001]

http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6822&highlight=tacco