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Status of IFS
- Thread starter runner2571
- Start date
magnetfreezer
Well-Known Member
$5k would probably cover only a few hours of flight time in a T-6/T-34 so the Navy would still come out ahead financially by screening people out in IFS. On second thought, since that would make sense, maybe your prediction is right.
Jesus...seriously, I know spreading rumors is fun and all, but knock it off. IFS isn't going away anytime soon, if at all. Contracting and certification of individual schools does not determine the nature of the program.
IFS going away? What a crazy rumor, especially considering that the new and improved IFS with tactical/ACM/weapons det/NVG syllabus is a just few signatures away from reality.
(Tell that to the first three people at A-pool muster and tell them to each tell three more people...)
I heard the navy figured it could save a ton by not buying T-6s, and just flipping coins for NSS and sending doods directly to a FRS sans training. IFS is a cheap way for uncle to see if he's gonna get his money's worth out of you. It ain't going anywhere.
Really now... IFS not going away??? Before we reduce carrier strike group operational availability, it seems that we would find ways to cut fat like this....
Entitlement nation...
Seems to me that we winged lots of folks without IFS in the past.... I'll forward the proposal today! Any body got some costing data? Kidding.
Entitlement nation...
Seems to me that we winged lots of folks without IFS in the past.... I'll forward the proposal today! Any body got some costing data? Kidding.
I keep hearing this magical half million dollar/million dollar number to train an aviator. Does anyone have anything that actually lays out total costs to train the typical NA?
RadicalDude
Social Justice Warlord
I don't have access to the full article, but the abstract to this CNATRA study says $1.3 million. A GAO paper I d/l'd after googling said $1-9 million depending on platform and service. Also, this NAMRL study mentions the cost of attrites averaging $160 k. They cite a CNATRA memo which has "actual cost" data titled "CNATRA (2008b). FY07 CNATRA Actual Cost Per Student. CNATRA report dated 25 August 2008." So I imagine if someone (Fester?) has access to this memo they could lay it out for ya.
But I'm just a lone SNFO with too much time on my hands, so who knows.
There's several different ways of figuring out how much it costs per stud. Simplest way is flight hours in the syllabus x cost per hour in each a/c, but if you've been through the program, you know that that doesn't necessarily compute accurately, not least because there's a wide delta in hours for different students in our sprint-drift-sprint training program flow, and there's a lot of fuzzy math in figuring cost-per-flight-hour anyway. Then how do you figure cost for sim time? Or classroom time taught by an active duty instructor vs. a contractor? Do you factor in the cost of running a VT day-to-day?
A million bucks street-to-Fleet for a Hornet guy is close enough for gov't work. Dunno how it breaks down for everybody else, but Hawkeye FO's have to be the cheapest since we get so little flight time in TRACOM and RAG (and most of our RAG training is classroom or sim time) relative to everyone else.
It ain't cheap, but it's more expensive to have shitty pilots.
Anyway - IFS's main purpose is screening before we spend a bunch of money. I like to say that they're screening for three things: aptitude, airsickness, and attitude. Barfing you can't help, some folks freak out when they have the controls, some studs are here because they want a leather jacket and don't want to do the work. Or just ain't smart enough. It's very cheap for what we get out of it.
A million bucks street-to-Fleet for a Hornet guy is close enough for gov't work. Dunno how it breaks down for everybody else, but Hawkeye FO's have to be the cheapest since we get so little flight time in TRACOM and RAG (and most of our RAG training is classroom or sim time) relative to everyone else.
It ain't cheap, but it's more expensive to have shitty pilots.
Anyway - IFS's main purpose is screening before we spend a bunch of money. I like to say that they're screening for three things: aptitude, airsickness, and attitude. Barfing you can't help, some folks freak out when they have the controls, some studs are here because they want a leather jacket and don't want to do the work. Or just ain't smart enough. It's very cheap for what we get out of it.
I knew a girl who threw up 8 times on her first IFS flight...and is somehow still in TRACOM. One marine from my IFS class attritted during PA's in primary and another DOR'd during PA's. I may have had an outlier experience, but I'm leaning toward believing we could get through the program without IFS. I still don't know why FO's need it.
Did you read my post? I've never recc'd anyone for attrition from IFS due to airwork, nor have I heard of it. Attitude, aptitude and airsickness - applies to both pilots and FO's.
And airsickness isn't a definite cutoff - but if you're seriously barfing, we'd rather find out in IFS than Primary, so we can see if you're curable before a bunch more of your time and the Navy's money is invested.
Nor does anyone really believe that IFS is a perfect indicator of whether you'll get your wings. We're trying to see if you're trainable. We probably could get by without it, and we did for a long time. I didn't do IFS. But we definitely get something for the investment.
Seeing as you are a SNA who has never been in a fleet squadron, there is probably a whole shit load of things you don't know. I recommend that in these cases, you consider your opinion to be your asshole and keep it to yourself.
Get your wings, get in a fleet squadron and maybe actually fly with a NFO before you pontificate.
Absolutely you could. Thousands did it for decades. That doesn't mean the program isn't worthwhile. Cost wise it seems way better to occasionally lose a guy that would have made it through to wings if in the process you can get rid of a dozen up front that had no business getting in a cockpit in the first place. It's about evaluating whether or not you are worth the investment, not about making you into a good aviator.
From a training standpoint I tend to hold the same opinion of the pointlessness of IFS in that I did well in primary and advanced, but felt like I was on the chopping block in IFS. I didn't realize it at the time, but the quality of instruction I received in IFS was marginal at best and damned near all of the things I struggled with in IFS went away instantly once I was exposed to the Navy's way of training. However, I made it through, and like others have mentioned here, the goal of IFS isn't to assess your skills as a pilot. If your IFS experience sucked be sure to say so on all those training surveys you have to take at the end of every stage. Supposedly the school I went through lost it's IFS contract eventually so in theory the program is working (shitty school + lots of bad critiques = no contract).
Oh yeah, don't anger NFOs. Life is better when they aren't mad at you.