I’m afraid you’re just wrong on this. There’s no simpler way to put it. This is a huge deal. Put yourself in a CNOs shoes.
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Stand by for high seas, heavy rolls in NSW and JAGC
- Thread starter nittany03
- Start date
I assume you’ve already written him an email recommending he resigns?
But the Chief was held accountable. Just not in the way or degree you think it should've been. He was subjected to the military criminal justice system, arraigned, formally charged, subjected to pre-trial confinement, and the trial process which could've resulted in a long prison sentence. However, it resulted in an acquittal on all but one count. His pre-trial confinement period exceeded the maximum punishment allowable for the single count for which he was convicted. The fact that his rank was restored could be in recognition for what this individual has contributed in totality to this country.
Despite what is being said here, this is the process.
This basic scenario plays out in civilian courts everyday. And there's the appeal process, whereby decisions in trial courts are reviewed and occasionally remanded or reversed outright. And Executives exercise powers to do things like commuting sentences. POTUS pissed off DOJ types when he commuted the sentence of a Jewish meatpacker and DOJ prosecutors there were echoing many of the same sentiments here.
Trump commutes sentence of kosher meatpacking executive
The decision to intervene on behalf of Sholom Rubashkin came at the urging of members of Congress and other high-ranking officials.
www.politico.com
And the next time a 60 goes down in some godforsaken place, I doubt the locals will take pause to reflect on the actions of Gallagher and channel those emotions before dragging the corpses of fallen Americans through the streets.
But the Chief was held accountable. Just not in the way or degree you think it should've been. He was subjected to the military criminal justice system, arraigned, formally charged, subjected to pre-trial confinement, and the trial process which could've resulted in a long prison sentence. However, it resulted in an acquittal on all but one count. His pre-trial confinement period exceeded the maximum punishment allowable for the single count for which he was convicted. The fact that his rank was restored could be in recognition for what this individual has contributed in totality to this country. Despite what is being said here, this is the process.
This basic scenario plays out in civilian courts everyday. And there's the appeal process, whereby decisions in trial courts are reviewed and occasionally remanded or reversed outright. And Executives exercise powers to do things like commuting sentences. POTUS pissed off DOJ types when he commuted the sentence of a Jewish meatpacker and DOJ prosecutors there were echoing many of the same sentiments here.
Trump commutes sentence of kosher meatpacking executive
The decision to intervene on behalf of Sholom Rubashkin came at the urging of members of Congress and other high-ranking officials.
And the next time a 60 goes down in some godforsaken place, I doubt the locals will take pause to reflect on the actions of Gallagher and channel those emotions before dragging the corpses of fallen Americans through the streets.
Your wrong. Save everyone the medal flashing. I don’t give a flying fuck how many combat tours or what his contribution was to the country. Hundreds of Marines have been in similar situations and left with their dignity and honor in tact. Some of them did not and they were held accountable. Now you want people to make an exception? Get fucked. You don’t get a free pass above the UCMJ because you’ve racked up a lot of time in service. That thought process is irrational and wrong.
The last paragraph just shows your uneducated on today’s conflicts and how our actions on today’s battle space have ramifications far beyond what was common in your time. This isn’t the Cold War anymore. Not really much more to be discussed on that topic.
As I said in another forum, if anyone thinks this is the only time Gallagher did this or anything else remotely related, then you are delusional.
But why not make this a win/win situation? POTUS could have easily appealed to his base by stepping in an Gallagher's behalf, while also not shitting on his CNO and alienating half of DoN. That would have been very easy... if he had followed establish processes. Sure, the public doesn't care about CNO, but you can't argue that it's beneficial in any way to the administration to have discord or chaos between the WH and DoD. That is why it matters. You seem content to hand waive that as some astute political calculation, when it's really just an own goal that could have easily been avoided.
The military trial process, subsequent review, confinement and exercise of executive authority is not a free pass.
It is a rational, well-established, and tested process.
A jury heard the evidence, reached a verdict and Gallagher was convicted on one count. Gallagher was already confined for longer than the allowable term for the conviction. POTUS then reinstated Gallagher's rank, exercising executive authority similar to every prior US President since the founding of the country.
That literally is our system. Many Presidents exercise similar power, Obama exercised executive power pardoning Marine General Cartwright two weeks before sentencing after he had pled guilty, and commuted the 35 year prison sentence of Chelsea Manning. That exercise of authority goes back to the founding days of this country.
Our system provides the mechanism to bring other charges against Gallagher, if they believe they can convince a finder of fact to the standard of proof.
Regarding a Defendant's history, you may not give a flying fuck, but the judicial system does and has for a long time. In fact, giving consideration in the sentencing phase to mitigation is a substantial part of that phase for long and well established reasons.
Cold War? I was in a direct action aviation outfit eight years ago in RC-East in the CAS stack with folks like you.
But I guess your generation thinks guys my age should be arguing in the commissary.
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That is a broad assumption. The appeal for clemency was sitting on Richardson's desk and Gilday inherited it. Executive intervention in judicial process is nothing new. Armchair quarterbacking the timing is just that. Some folks on this thread predicted the outright dropping of charges by the CNO following the revelations of prosecutorial misconduct. In the civilian world, the case would've very likely been dropped. And since jeopardy attached, no charges could have been brought in the future. The court did a real job just getting the case to the jury.
If Trump intervened prior to sentencing, he would been criticized for undermining the process. Instead, the jury announced a verdict, a subsequent sentence, and the defense appealed for clemency which was tabled by one CNO, denied by the subsequent CNO and overturned by POTUS.
Really bending over backward to excuse a suboptimal situation. You still haven't addressed my previous question. Why not have your cake and eat it too? That would appear to be a no-brainer.
And your response lacks precision. Suboptimal situation? That's lovely. No shit. You know what else was suboptimal? The whole prosecution.
Your perception that this fiasco represents a out of synch relationship between POTUS and the CNO. They disagreed about a personnel disciplinary issue that absolutely has far reaching effect. Does that mean they are out of synch?
What would you have done differently?
Not performing any calisthenics here, just stating what happened. POTUS followed the process and let it go all the way up the chain. POTUS did not cut it off at arraignment, did not pardon Gallagher during the pre-trial phase, did not order him released outright from confinement, and did not pardon him prior to sentencing.
A shit show of prosecutorial misconduct, and outright manipulation of witnesses, unlawful spying on an adversarial party, surprisingly didn't result in a mistrial and likely would've been a court of criminal appeals fast track. Not to mention, many others were in those pictures at least opening the door to malicious prosecution. The outrage should be at the criminal conduct of the prosecution.
Gallagher was tried by a jury comprised of mostly Marine combat veterans. They heard every shred of evidence no one here is privy too.
They acquitted Gallagher on thirteen separate counts including attempted murder and premeditated murder and convicted Gallagher on one count of wrongfully posing with a casualty. The conviction rate in courts martial runs about 80 percent.
Trump disagreed with what the CNO concluded and POTUS exercised his lawful authority to reinstate the Chief's rank. POTUS also appears poised to commute the sentences of two combat veterans serving prison sentences for crimes in the combat zone.
Folks here are complaining about irrationality, lack of process, and yet...there is nothing but a wealth of examples of the very same process exercised since the founding.
No brainer indeed. Especially if you set emotion aside.
Your perception that this fiasco represents a out of synch relationship between POTUS and the CNO. They disagreed about a personnel disciplinary issue that absolutely has far reaching effect. Does that mean they are out of synch?
What would you have done differently?
Not performing any calisthenics here, just stating what happened. POTUS followed the process and let it go all the way up the chain. POTUS did not cut it off at arraignment, did not pardon Gallagher during the pre-trial phase, did not order him released outright from confinement, and did not pardon him prior to sentencing.
A shit show of prosecutorial misconduct, and outright manipulation of witnesses, unlawful spying on an adversarial party, surprisingly didn't result in a mistrial and likely would've been a court of criminal appeals fast track. Not to mention, many others were in those pictures at least opening the door to malicious prosecution. The outrage should be at the criminal conduct of the prosecution.
Gallagher was tried by a jury comprised of mostly Marine combat veterans. They heard every shred of evidence no one here is privy too.
They acquitted Gallagher on thirteen separate counts including attempted murder and premeditated murder and convicted Gallagher on one count of wrongfully posing with a casualty. The conviction rate in courts martial runs about 80 percent.
Trump disagreed with what the CNO concluded and POTUS exercised his lawful authority to reinstate the Chief's rank. POTUS also appears poised to commute the sentences of two combat veterans serving prison sentences for crimes in the combat zone.
Folks here are complaining about irrationality, lack of process, and yet...there is nothing but a wealth of examples of the very same process exercised since the founding.
No brainer indeed. Especially if you set emotion aside.
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I would argue the difference here is that Brett and Hozer (and Hotdog) are arguing about the process of government, which POTUS just happens to be a cog in the middle (or top) of. Thankfully it has not degenerated into an argument about how someone feels disrespected just because someone else doesn't agree with their opinions on/about POTUS. That's when things seem to fall apart.
Brett, Hozer, and Hotdog...carry on. It's a good discussion. Just fair warning.