• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

SSN Readiness

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
In line with this conversation, my son lives in New Hampshire and says he is always getting e-mails from the Kittery Yard offering jobs at the WG-7 (apprentice) scale. Basically, they’ll train you in any one of 21 skilled trades - all working on submarines. Once qualified the pay climbs rapidly and the job promises travel to all of the exotic navy yards in the system. He has a degree in geography and some GIS skills but I told him the trades route isn’t a bad deal.
 

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
My son stopped college, he was wasting my money. He got hired on as a CAD technician for an engineering firm and is now banking decent money for a 20 year old and getting great engineering experience. I wish he would look at the trades.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
AI is rapidly and violently going to turn this model upside down quickly . . . .
As a technologist, AI is ridiculously overhyped right now. It's basically your phone's autocorrect on steroids, except it can also confidently present you utter and complete bullshit from time to time. Check back in 10 years.

Lawyer who cited cases concocted by AI asks judge to spare sanctions

Samsung Bans ChatGPT Among Employees After Sensitive Code Leak

Artists file class-action lawsuit saying AI artwork violates copyright laws

FTC reportedly looking into OpenAI over ‘reputational harm’ caused by ChatGPT
 
Last edited:

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
and the job promises travel to all of the exotic navy yards in the system.
"'Every time a new yardbird is born,' he said, 'the gods toss a coin in the air, and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.'"

Heads . . . Pearl Harbor.

Tails . . . Bremerton.
 

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
The Writers are striking as we speak because they don't like the fact that they are getting out-competed by technology. That strike is threatening the entire industry because the Writers are feeling selfish.
That is not why the WGA is on strike. The WGA is on strike for residuals and royalties for streaming platforms, as they aren't getting compensation equal to syndication on a TV broadcast network. The big example being thrown out is Abbott Elementary writers make $13,500 for syndication on TV broadcast, but only $700 for their run on Hulu- which also includes sublists on Disney plus and (HBO) Max. That's not okay.

And they are not getting outcompeted by AI/ChatGPT. AI isn't there yet and can't put together a even remotely believable script. However, they want to get ahead of the curve- they want to potentially be able to use AI, but not have AI replace them. If it were up to the executives, they would have the showrunner use chatGPT for $400 to write the entire show. Is that really art anymore? I don't think so.

So I don't see any of this as selfish. SAG-AFTRA just voted to strike as well. If the writers were being selfish, why would other unions start to join them?
Both of these are true. But there's two parts to college. It's a continuum, not a binary, but there's the "higher education" bit that's supposed to make you an educated person, so to speak, and there's the "learning a white-collar trade" bit where you become an engineer, teacher, lawyer, or doctor. That said, I'd argue that the hard STEM fields are vehicles for upward mobility, whereas the humanities and such are not something to recommend to someone who isn't either born to some degree of wealth or willing to live with the smaller paycheck you're going to get in such a field.

That doesn't make the humanities wrong or stupid, but it does make going into debt for a humanities or fill-in-the-blank-studies degree a really, really dumb financial decision. Ultimately, the humanities (and colleges originally) were finishing schools for the upper class, not vehicles for social mobility. And that's doubly so these days, where the humanities as a field seems to have more or less disappeared up its own postmodernist asshole. Which is a shame, because a lot of what's wrong with society lately can get pinned on STEM grads, CS grads in particular, who had zero understanding of the potential social consequences of the products they were building.

I suppose I agree with you to an extent. Any college degree can work when the job requirement is a 4 year degree from an accredited college or university. I also tend to think that there are plenty of colleges where your engineering degree isn't going to be worth nearly as much as that acting degree from NYU, or that dance degree from Juilliard. Any humanities program that has a competitive audition/selection process to get in is going to be an avenue of upward mobility if you can complete the program.


Which really brings me to what I think the primary reason to select a school to go to: because you want to do what the graduates of that program are doing and go where the graduates of that program are going. Don't go to a service academy if you don't want to be in the military.

I think the real problem is that we've told everyone since 1970 that going to college and getting a degree was the secret to success- and for a while perhaps it was. But then a college degree became a commodity. It didn't matter than the local liberal arts college didn't have a good humanities, or business, or music, or engineering, school. It only mattered that they offered a degree in said program. "Here's a college degree" "Great, now what do I do with it?"

I also think that a career in education, and higher education, is absolutely valid and a way toward upward mobility. I also think that money and how much you make isn't the be-all, end-all measure of success. Beyond a certain point, more money doesn't provide you with more happiness.
 
Last edited:

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I also tend to think that there are plenty of colleges where your engineering degree isn't going to be worth nearly as much as that acting degree from NYU, or that dance degree from Juilliard. Any humanities program that has a competitive audition/selection process to get in is going to be an avenue of upward mobility if you can complete the program.
Yeah, but this is like saying that your career plan is to play in a rock band and buy lottery tickets. It realistically only works if your family is rich enough to support you on the off chance you make it big. How many MFAs from NYU or Julliard grads actually become the next Robin Williams, Val Kilmer, or Adam Driver? More specifically, how many people who don't come from wealth can afford these degrees in the first place? It's easy to wait for your break after graduation if Mommy and Daddy can pay for the apartment in New York City.

You're much more likely as a first-generation college grad to succeed by getting a state school degree in something like mechanical engineering or computer science, and trying to suck up every scholarship and grant you can get your hands on before going into debt.
 

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
Yeah, but this is like saying that your career plan is to play in a rock band and buy lottery tickets. It realistically only works if your family is rich enough to support you on the off chance you make it big. How many MFAs from NYU or Julliard grads actually become the next Robin Williams, Val Kilmer, or Adam Driver?
That's like saying how many business school grads become the next Steve Jobs, Doug McMillan, or Jeff Bezos. Those folks aren't the middle third vast majority of professionals who make up the industry- they're the top .001%.
There are plenty of MFAs from NYU and Juilliard making upper middle class money. I'd argue that most are, and it is the normal place for the graduates of those programs to fall.

https://bobbyblackhat.com/about
Here's an interesting case study about a guy with a liberal arts degree- retired O-5 Coast Guardsman, making more money as a blues musician than he was when he was on AD. He's just a local/regional musician who is good at his craft. One of the many professionals.

The guy who runs the various open mic nights and open jams in and around Kalamazoo has a degree in Music from Western Michigan University, and he make enough to support his family, live in a nice middle class neighborhood, etc... and he's not the only musician living that way here.

I have friends who make middle class money doing voiceovers and voice acting, working commercials, acting in regional theater and national tours. The starving artist is starving because they aren't out applying themselves, they're waiting for someone to come to them, or they're just bad at it.

If you're bad at engineering, you're not going to get/keep a job or make a lot of money. If you're a bad actor or musician the same is true.


More specifically, how many people who don't come from wealth can afford these degrees in the first place? It's easy to wait for your break after graduation if Mommy and Daddy can pay for the apartment in New York City.
I think that is a narrowminded view of who you think is in the humanities- that's pretty generalist and insulting as most folks in the field don't fit that description.

And that metric applies to anyone in any career field.


You're much more likely as a first-generation college grad to succeed by getting a state school degree in something like mechanical engineering or computer science, and trying to suck up every scholarship and grant you can get your hands on before going into debt.

Again, this metric applies to all programs. That degree in english, or creative writing, with a teaching certificate is definitely a way for upward mobility.


And you seem to be neglecting those folks who don't like or want or aren't good at CS or ME.

I would never tell someone who showed little to no talent in acting, or music, or art, or design, to go to a school to get a degree in those fields if they expected to get a job in them if they could even complete the program.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I think that is a narrowminded view of who you think is in the humanities- that's pretty generalist and insulting as most folks in the field don't fit that description.
I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm just observing that if one wants to live in places like LA or NY and make an entry-level living in such things as music, theater, or for that matter, journalism, it helps for one's family to be of means.
 

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm just observing that if one wants to live in places like LA or NY and make an entry-level living in such things as music, theater, or for that matter, journalism, it helps for one's family to be of means.
I'm still not understanding how having an engineering degree changes that.

Entry level on Off-Off-Broadway supports living in NYC.

I think you're confusing entry level with freelance. There is a very large difference between "I'm moving to NYC or Chicago or LA with very little training or support from an institution of higher learning to make it big" vs "I'm an industry professional starting off in my career in the cities that my industry exists in, that my institution of higher learning has a large alumni presence in."

Again, if mom and dad are paying the bills during the early time you're going to be more successful is anything that you do no matter what it is.

But to insinuate that successful engineers didn't need that while successful artists did is wrong and insulting.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
But to insinuate that successful engineers didn't need that while successful artists did is wrong and insulting.
I'm not insinuating that, and maybe I'm missing something about the payscale for that field. I'm just comparing the amount of money one needs to get started (college tuition at a state school vs a prestige school like NYU or Julliard) compared to what can reasonably be expected out of a humanities vs STEM degree salary-wise. All else being equal, it's a better idea to minimize your debt and maximize your income so as to start socking away retirement money. If the pay is there for those folks, I won't dispute or mock it; maybe I learned something. I'm just skeptical of the financial return on taking a big-time prestige degree in the humanities and then trying to pay a big-city cost of living. I'm a STEM grad in greater Seattle, so I know what big-city cost of living looks like.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
IMG_1446.jpeg
Well sir…we started out talking about SSN readiness and next thing you know we flew into some typical AW thread-jet wash that put the conversation in a flat spin. I yelled to eject and…so…you can see what happened.
 

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
I'm not insinuating that, and maybe I'm missing something about the payscale for that field. I'm just comparing the amount of money one needs to get started (college tuition at a state school vs a prestige school like NYU or Julliard) compared to what can reasonably be expected out of a humanities vs STEM degree salary-wise. All else being equal, it's a better idea to minimize your debt and maximize your income so as to start socking away retirement money. If the pay is there for those folks, I won't dispute or mock it; maybe I learned something. I'm just skeptical of the financial return on taking a big-time prestige degree in the humanities and then trying to pay a big-city cost of living. I'm a STEM grad in greater Seattle, so I know what big-city cost of living looks like.

Yeah. The big thing to understand is that the theater/music scene in big cities exists because people can afford to live and work in the industry in that city. The interesting thing about Seattle is that the live theater and arts scene isn't that big, and it's fairly niche. Lots of super liberal shows started around there. Much like San Fran, it's not indicative of the industry at large. However, just across the border, Vancouver has a pretty vibrant industry- especially in film and TV (they rival Atlanta).

Seattle had Grunge much like Detroit had Motown. But neither city is good for music today. NYC, LA and Chicago will always be players, but honestly Nashville is where musicians are made these days. Some of the side streets of Lower Broadway are like the modern day Laurel Canyon.

All of this to say is that you still have to be good at your craft. And yeah, you and I agree that the local engineering firm will pay more than the local theater in a lot of places- especially in smaller towns and cities.

And a lot of people who aren't good go to LA or NYC to "make it big". They aren't the professionals I speak of. They're like the "I was going to join the military but I'd punch a Drill Instructor in the face" kind of people.
 

Random8145

Registered User
This is very true. Alas, my IATSE chapter, local 264, folded a few years ago- and with it wages for stagehands regressed to what they were 20+ years ago. (10.50 an hour was what the unskilled box pusher got in 2001- now that's what a lighting electrician makes on a hang call).

The next part of your post (which I don't have the stomach to repost...) Is company propaganda to keep people from organizing.

If you want skilled labor, you have to pay for skilled labor. If you treat skilled labor like unskilled labor, then you will get unskilled laborers attempting their hand at a skill they have no training in.
Isn't pay of skilled laborers determined by the market (supply and demand)? A union would constitute forming a worker cartel in order to artificially increase the price of said labor (pay), wouldn't it?
 

Random8145

Registered User
That is not why the WGA is on strike. The WGA is on strike for residuals and royalties for streaming platforms, as they aren't getting compensation equal to syndication on a TV broadcast network. The big example being thrown out is Abbott Elementary writers make $13,500 for syndication on TV broadcast, but only $700 for their run on Hulu- which also includes sublists on Disney plus and (HBO) Max. That's not okay.

And they are not getting outcompeted by AI/ChatGPT. AI isn't there yet and can't put together a even remotely believable script. However, they want to get ahead of the curve- they want to potentially be able to use AI, but not have AI replace them. If it were up to the executives, they would have the showrunner use chatGPT for $400 to write the entire show. Is that really art anymore? I don't think so.
True, but so what? The show is a commercial venture designed to make money. If the people footing the bill can replace any skilled trade in the making of such, they have every right to. Whether it's art or not is irrelevant, unless the customer base demands it be made by humans. I don't like the idea of AI replacing artists and professions, but the ultimate boss there is the business owner, not the worker possibly being replaced. Also more automation lowers prices and frees up people to do more things. I am curious as to what will happen if/when AI gets to the point where it can replace most professions, but we are not there yet.
So I don't see any of this as selfish. SAG-AFTRA just voted to strike as well. If the writers were being selfish, why would other unions start to join them?
Unions can be extremely selfish.
 
Last edited:
Top