SSN Readiness

[robav8r]

This is certainly a sobering read . . . .

"Delays at naval shipyards caused by supply-chain issues and not enough workers have put nearly 40% of Navy attack submarines out of commission, according to a July 6 report from the Congressional Research Service."

 

[AllAmerican75]

Not surprising to me. We closed far too many public (Navy-owned) shipyards during the BRAC periods in the 90s and early 2000s. They are simply overwhelmed with CVN and SSN work with absolutely zero availability for conventional surface ships. Place the Jones Act restrictions on top of it and the subsequent destruction of the American Maritime industry leaving us with few private yards with the capacity for Naval repair work. Combine all of that with the hollowing out of our industrial base due to "free trade" policies and all of the outsourcing and shipping of manufacturing overseas and you have a recipe for disaster.

I've heard stories of welders in Hampton Roads forming de facto cartels and collectively bargaining for increases in pay. They'll work for a while at a yard and when they stop getting raises, they'll all quit and go across the street to one of the other yards in the area for higher pay and compensation packages. They are able to do this because there aren't enough welders to go around. That affects gov't hiring as well since the gov't cannot compete at the price point of private industry. My buddies at the yards and RMCs are having a helluva time managing all of this and getting ships and subs back to sea on time.

The only solution I can see is right-sizing our Fleet to what is manageable and then reducing our OPTEMPO as a Navy in accordance with our Fleet size and historical best practices for ship maintenance periodicities.

 

[nittany03]

I've heard stories of welders in Hampton Roads forming de facto cartels and collectively bargaining for increases in pay. They'll work for a while at a yard and when they stop getting raises, they'll all quit and go across the street to one of the other yards in the area for higher pay and compensation packages. They are able to do this because there aren't enough welders to go around.

If only there were membership organizations that tradesmen could join for the purpose of collectively bargaining with management. What could we call such things?

 

[Griz882]

If only there were membership organizations that tradesmen could join for the purpose of collectively bargaining with management. What could we call such things?

Crips…Bloods…MS-13…those names come to mind.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I've heard stories of welders in Hampton Roads forming de facto cartels and collectively bargaining for increases in pay. They'll work for a while at a yard and when they stop getting raises, they'll all quit and go across the street to one of the other yards in the area for higher pay and compensation packages. They are able to do this because there aren't enough welders to go around. That affects gov't hiring as well since the gov't cannot compete at the price point of private industry. My buddies at the yards and RMCs are having a helluva time managing all of this and getting ships and subs back to sea on time.

This doesn't surprise me and I think it wouldn't matter how many ships or subs we have, when I was at IMF I would hear the civilians tell the next shift "don't get all the work done, we need OT this weekend", this would piss off the sailors as the rule for a while was if the civilians in the shop were in so were the sailors, they later altered the rule. The shipyard workers need to pay for their fancy toys.

 

[AllAmerican75]

If only there were membership organizations that tradesmen could join for the purpose of collectively bargaining with management. What could we call such things?

VA is not a pro-union state. The private yards are all "at will" employers. In fact, many don't want unions because the rigid union structure would cut into their wages and reduce their bargaining power.

This doesn't surprise me and I think it wouldn't matter how many ships or subs we have, when I was at IMF I would hear the civilians tell the next shift "don't get all the work done, we need OT this weekend", this would piss off the sailors as the rule for a while was if the civilians in the shop were in so were the sailors, they later altered the rule. The shipyard workers need to pay for their fancy toys.

That's not a function of number of ships or yards but rather the lack of welders available in the labor market. The focus on sending everybody and their brother to college and only college for the last 20 years has left us with a dearth of skilled tradesmen and artisans.

 

[nittany03]

The focus on sending everybody and their brother to college and only college for the last 20 years has left us with a dearth of skilled tradesmen and artisans.

And a surplus of useless basketweaving majors.

 

[Swanee]

VA is not a pro-union state. The private yards are all "at will" employers.

This is very true. Alas, my IATSE chapter, local 264, folded a few years ago- and with it wages for stagehands regressed to what they were 20+ years ago. (10.50 an hour was what the unskilled box pusher got in 2001- now that's what a lighting electrician makes on a hang call).

The next part of your post (which I don't have the stomach to repost...) Is company propaganda to keep people from organizing.

If you want skilled labor, you have to pay for skilled labor. If you treat skilled labor like unskilled labor, then you will get unskilled laborers attempting their hand at a skill they have no training in.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

VA is not a pro-union state. The private yards are all "at will" employers. In fact, many don't want unions because the rigid union structure would cut into their wages and reduce their bargaining power.


That's not a function of number of ships or yards but rather the lack of welders available in the labor market. The focus on sending everybody and their brother to college and only college for the last 20 years has left us with a dearth of skilled tradesmen and artisans.

When I was at IMF we didn't have a shortage of welders it was just the civilians wanting OT for more money, I can't speak for now but I do know several friends who retired, went to work for the shipyard as supervisors and have since quit, for them the money wasn't worth the weekends away from the family.

I have always said there are those who are ready for college after HS and those that are not, those that don't go to college have many options to earn a good career. My daughter could be one of those, she will do running start but wants to be an EMT then Paramedic, talking to some friends of mine that are local a first year EMT is looking at 70K per year without overtime.

 

[MIDNJAC]

I know plenty of "civilians" working jobs that aren't really "college boy" jobs, and are quite well paid. Nurses, EMTs, contractors, head chefs, realtors, airline pilots, etc, i.e. skilled services. Some of those involve college, many really don't. It's too bad we have leveled this expectation on our kids that they go to expensive colleges......or I should say, that society has made a BS/BA a basic requirement for employment in your 20s. Just more inflation of everything at work.

 

[Gatordev]

My daughter could be one of those, she will do running start but wants to be an EMT then Paramedic, talking to some friends of mine that are local a first year EMT is looking at 70K per year without overtime.

I know we're getting off-topic, but you also have to keep in mind what the cost of living is. $70K might sound great, but that's not much in LA. Medics in my area are pretty poorly compensated unless they're in the FD in a big city. And then you may end up getting a Mandatory on your day off. Even the county contracted providers aren't paid all that well.

That's not to say she shouldn't do it. By all means, go for it! But just go in with eyes open and understand gross salary isn't the whole story.

 

[taxi1]

If only there were membership organizations that tradesmen could join for the purpose of collectively bargaining with management. What could we call such things?

Banding together for survival has a long history in the USA.

 

[GroundPounder]

I know we're getting off-topic, but you also have to keep in mind what the cost of living is. $70K might sound great, but that's not much in LA. Medics in my area are pretty poorly compensated unless they're in the FD in a big city. And then you may end up getting a Mandatory on your day off. Even the county contracted providers aren't paid all that well.

That's not to say she shouldn't do it. By all means, go for it! But just go in with eyes open and understand gross salary isn't the whole story.

It depends on what kind of mayhem she wants to participate in, but many ERs have EMTs on staff to work the ER. In this area, they are paid more to work inside than ride an ambulance. EMTs in this area are very under paid, even given our relative low cost of living.

Good luck to her, that is a hard job, but they make an immediate difference in a lot of people's lives.

 

[taxi1]

The focus on sending everybody and their brother to college and only college for the last 20 years has left us with a dearth of skilled tradesmen and artisans.

Amen, and I say that as someone who teaches in college.

This article is related. Basically, a majority of current student loan holders owe more now than when they took out their loans. The principal is growing on them. They will never pay their loans back. We've set up a system that guarantees failure.

Opinion | America’s Student Loans Were Never Going to Be Repaid (Published 2023)

During the pandemic, the U.S. paused regular payments for student loans. But repayment was dwindling for at least a decade before that.

www.nytimes.com

The $1.7 trillion tower of mostly unrepayable student debt is a symbol of education policy failure...

This situation is the fruit of a tacit agreement among state legislatures, college administrators and the federal government dating back to the 1970s: defund public colleges and universities and shift them to a tuition-based revenue model, with the federal government backstopping the system with student debt so that more students can continue to obtain more expensive education...

To get a handle on the student debt crisis, the government will eventually have to redesign its relationship with American higher education.

 

[AllAmerican75]

This is very true. Alas, my IATSE chapter, local 264, folded a few years ago- and with it wages for stagehands regressed to what they were 20+ years ago. (10.50 an hour was what the unskilled box pusher got in 2001- now that's what a lighting electrician makes on a hang call).

The next part of your post (which I don't have the stomach to repost...) Is company propaganda to keep people from organizing.

If you want skilled labor, you have to pay for skilled labor. If you treat skilled labor like unskilled labor, then you will get unskilled laborers attempting their hand at a skill they have no training in.

Cool, I'm glad you know how skilled laborers in Hampton Roads think and can decide whether or not unionizing makes sense for them. I will take firsthand accounts and talking to all parties involved over your own pro-union propaganda. Unions don't always make sense and many workers don't see the benefit when they will be forced to pay part of their wages to the union and be stuck in more rigid promotion/pay scales without the ability to negotiate for more customized pay and compensation packages.

Don't believe me? Read this article discussing a successful unionization campaign in SF where even they had pushback from their fellow proles socialists workers: https://vinepair.com/articles/anchor-brewing-company-union/

I know plenty of "civilians" working jobs that aren't really "college boy" jobs, and are quite well paid. Nurses, EMTs, contractors, head chefs, realtors, airline pilots, etc, i.e. skilled services. Some of those involve college, many really don't. It's too bad we have leveled this expectation on our kids that they go to expensive colleges......or I should say, that society has made a BS/BA a basic requirement for employment in your 20s. Just more inflation of everything at work.

Yeah, it's crazy. I have many friends who went to college on loans, failed out, and then finally found their niche in blue collar fields working on cars, HVAC systems, and welding. These dudes were all C students at best and hated school. They should have never been told to go to college in the first place or been allowed to take out five-figure loans that they are still paying back almost 20 years later. The sad part is that the requirements for a BA/BS are a natural result of businesses not being able to test for competence or intelligence in hiring. It used to be you could take an IQ test or some other cognitive function battery and then get hired by companies into training pipelines. This isn't dissimilar to how the DoD uses the ASVAB, AFOQT, and ASTB/OAR for MOS and designator selection. Unfortunately it was ruled unconstitutional: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.

Amen, and I say that as someone who teaches in college.

This article is related. Basically, a majority of current student loan holders owe more now than when they took out their loans. The principal is growing on them. They will never pay their loans back. We've set up a system that guarantees failure.

Opinion | America’s Student Loans Were Never Going to Be Repaid (Published 2023)

During the pandemic, the U.S. paused regular payments for student loans. But repayment was dwindling for at least a decade before that.

www.nytimes.com

The $1.7 trillion tower of mostly unrepayable student debt is a symbol of education policy failure...

This situation is the fruit of a tacit agreement among state legislatures, college administrators and the federal government dating back to the 1970s: defund public colleges and universities and shift them to a tuition-based revenue model, with the federal government backstopping the system with student debt so that more students can continue to obtain more expensive education...

To get a handle on the student debt crisis, the government will eventually have to redesign its relationship with American higher education.

Something needs to be done about college loans. At the very least, they need to be dischargeable in bankruptcy but I think we need to have fewer people going to college and find other career routes and paths for them to take. College shouldn't be a prerequisite to live a fulfilling life with purpose and dignity.