USN Splash one SU-22 (merged threads)

[RHINOWSO]

Seriously? From the ground perspective I had to shoot at a lot more than some scabby Syrian just to get considered for Bronze!

Not my rules, just sort of how it has gone. There is that allure of an air-to-air kill which 'they' seem to want to recognize for the difficulty and rareness of it occurring. And while it may seem 'easy' in hindsight, those opportunities are very rare and fleeting, and have been F&^$ed away several times as well.

We can go down the medals game and how the Skipper of a ship who lofts TLAMs from 400 miles get a Bronze Star w/V, or how meritorious Bronze Stars are the war zone staff NCM these days. It just is what it is.

 

[Griz882]

Not my rules, just sort of how it has gone. There is that allure of an air-to-air kill which 'they' seem to want to recognize for the difficulty and rareness of it occurring. And while it may seem 'easy' in hindsight, those opportunities are very rare and fleeting, and have been F&^$ed away several times as well.

We can go down the medals game and how the Skipper of a ship who lofts TLAMs from 400 miles get a Bronze Star w/V, or how meritorious Bronze Stars are the war zone staff NCM these days. It just is what it is.

Agreed. Just out of curiosity, had it been a two-seat Hornet would the NFO get the same award as the pilot?

 

[RHINOWSO]

Agreed. Just out of curiosity, had it been a two-seat Hornet would the NFO get the same award as the pilot?

Typically yes.

After the first MIG kills of the Vietnam War, the Navy tried to give the two pilots Silver Stars and the two RIOs DFCs, but the crews said we all get the same or we aren't taking any award. So they all got Silver Stars and the unwritten policy still sticks. Granted the last F-14 / NFO kills were Desert Storm and the 80s Libyan kills, but they always got the same award.

And from my experience observing aviation awards for air to ground stuff (OEF / OIF / etc), for big ticket awards, that still seems to be the case with the Pilot and RIO / WSO getting the same award. Not always mind you, but very often.

 

[RHINOWSO]

And in those first kills of the Vietnam War I mentioned, they both came from complete radar intercepts with the RIOs steering the fight until the pilots got visual ID and pulled the trigger for forward quarter AIM-7 shots. So the RIOs had done a ton of work making them happen, so that kind of set the tone that the crews success and failure is as a team.

 

[jmcquate]

Only guy with 6 kills in Vietnam was a GIB.

 

[RHINOWSO]

Only guy with 6 kills in Vietnam was a GIB.

Yes, a USAF type. In fact the USAF had ony one 'ace' (5-kills) pilot and three backseaters in Vietnam (one of them being the 6 kill guy you mention).

The Navy only had one crew with 5 kills in the Vietnam war (former CA Representative, turned felon Cunningham and his RIO Driscoll).

Even then, the kills were hard to come by in Vietnam with the crappy missiles of the era, no gun on the F-4, and restrictive ROEs.

 

[jmcquate]

plus it wasn't a very pretty engagement.

Gotta check that volume on the heat growl.

 

[RHINOWSO]

Yeah, that was a case (for the lead) of better to be lucky than good.

 

[nittany03]

Not my rules, just sort of how it has gone. There is that allure of an air-to-air kill which 'they' seem to want to recognize for the difficulty and rareness of it occurring. And while it may seem 'easy' in hindsight, those opportunities are very rare and fleeting, and have been F&^$ed away several times as well.

And if they are, you end up at the merge. Where they can shoot back, and you're in a not-insignificant hazard of death yourself. I think that's where the whole Silver Star bit came from. The fact that people were taking gun-less F-4s to the merge to get a shot with the crappy missiles of the day. So if you ended up with multiple kills, you'd hung your ass out there quite a bit to do it.

 

[Flash]

A Silver Star is pretty much standard in Naval Aviation for a 'kill'. The VF-32 Gypsy's got DFCs in '89, as some thought they shouldn't have waxed the MIG-23s, or so the story goes... plus it wasn't a very pretty engagement.

Granted the last F-14 / NFO kills were Desert Storm

That means the 8 guys who shot down the 4 Libyans all got DFC's, I don't know what the crew that shot down the Mi-8 Hip in Desert Storm got but would be surprised it was a Silver Star. Which means the two Hornet pilots with kills in Desert Storm are the only ones so far that have gotten a Silver Star since the end of Vietnam for the Navy, so the 'standard' hasn't exactly been that the last 40 years.

In the past they have also given DFC for shootdowns of non-fighter type aircraft sometimes.

I can recall an instance in the Vietnam war were some F-4 shot down some AN-2 Colts in a relatively benign night overwater intercept and got DFCs instead of Silver Stars.

It was a mix for kills before the bombing halt in '68 whether one got a DFC or Silver Start just for a kill, only in '72 did it seem to become the standard for a kill you got a Silver Star.

For folks interested in aerial combat an excellent book on all the US aerial victories since the end of Vietnam, except the ones in the past few weeks, is Debrief: A Complete History of U.S. Aerial Engagements - 1981 to the Present by Craig 'Quizmo' Brown, a former F-111 and F-15E driver. I had the privilege of actually meeting the author and got to talk about his book in person, it is excellent read.

 

[Python]

And in those first kills of the Vietnam War I mentioned, they both came from complete radar intercepts with the RIOs steering the fight until the pilots got visual ID and pulled the trigger for forward quarter AIM-7 shots. So the RIOs had done a ton of work making them happen, so that kind of set the tone that the crews success and failure is as a team.

Things definitely work differently since then.

 

[RHINOWSO]

Things definitely work differently since then.

Yeah, I know.

 

[RHINOWSO]

Flash - You are correct, I checked my reference on the Vf-41 shootdown and they received DFCs as well. My apologies for the bad gouge, I could have swore I recalled it being Silver Stars, but apparently not.

Which is how it should go, action based vs automatic.

So we'll see what the Rhino driver gets for his AIM-120 shot.

"Debrief: A Complete History of U.S. Aerial Engagements - 1981 to the Present by Craig 'Quizmo' Brown"

Great book. Another good one is "Mig Killers of Yankee Station" by Michael O'Connor.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Nations have been handing out medals for air-to-air kills since the get-go. Germany even had a points system (so many kills = so much flair on your Iron Cross) during WWI and II. So it's neither new, nor American.

 

[Swanee]

A Silver Star is pretty much standard in Naval Aviation for a 'kill'. The VF-32 Gypsy's got DFCs in '89, as some thought they shouldn't have waxed the MIG-23s, or so the story goes... plus it wasn't a very pretty engagement.

My dad works with the pilot of that crew. If his bar story about the engagement is truly "TINS" it's an eye opener. Great guy though!