Spin Training

[Tom]

In a steep turn you should be coordinated. If you are coordinated fuel should not transfer tanks. Think about it. Do you feel like you are hanging sideways during a steep turn? Is your face on the side glass? Fuel would transfer in a slip. A point in which you would be uncoordinated during a steep turn is when you are changing bank angles (like the entry or in the case of commercial steep turns, the transition to the other direction). Proper technique includes simultaneous rudder and aileron input during the maneuver, maintaining coordinated flight most of the time.

Now if you do get a fuel imbalance it cannot be that much. Assume 30 gallon tanks both half full. One gallon of Avgas weighs 6 pounds. 180 pounds per side. To get any significant roll moment due to the imbalance would take quite a bit of fuel to be transferred. I doubt your fuel system being able to transfer fuel fast enough to make it significant. I have flown during training with an accidental fuel imbalance of 20 gallons in an Arrow and there was a slight rolling tendency. It was nothing exciting.

The most probable explanation of how you entered the spin is the lack of right rudder. Plane starts turning left due to p-factor and you correct with right aileron without thinking about it. You are pretty much in a slip and are uncoordinated. Stall and the fun starts.

 

[usmarinemike]

It has nothing to do with fuel in the tanks, it's about CG. Like I said the definitions in categories is something you need to better understand. IIRC a Cardinal is Normal category which prohibits spins. And for good reason.

If there's 18 gallons in one tank and 3 in the other, is the Cardinal outside of the normal category envelope. I'm pretty sure I have a good understanding of aircraft categories (I think you're getting our avatars messed up. He stole mine).

Also, if the ball is centered throughout the stall, is there ANYTHING that'll cause a spin to occur?

 

[usmarinemike]

Considering you said "fuel in the tanks is only going to affect the aircraft about the long axis", I assumed you meant the longitudinal axis, which it wouldn't, but yeah, otherwise same same.

Yeah. A fuel imbalance will cause a problem in roll, not yaw, unless something else like I described is happening.

 

[Tom]

If there's 18 gallons in one tank and 3 in the other, is the Cardinal outside of the normal category envelope. I'm pretty sure I have a good understanding of aircraft categories (I think you're getting our avatars messed up. He stole mine).

Also, if the ball is centered throughout the stall, is there ANYTHING that'll cause a spin to occur?

Aircraft categories mainly have to do with negative and positive G limitations. A fuel imbalance would not change the G's on an airplane significantly. 3.8 G's is the upper limit for normal, 4.4 for utility and 6 for aerobatic (changes). I think your understanding of aircraft categories is wrong.

If you are coordinated and there is nothing wrong with the plane (such as shit missing or broken), both wings will stall at the same time. Nothing will cause the autorotation and therefore no spin.

 

[FelixTheGreat]

Aircraft categories mainly have to do with negative and positive G limitations. A fuel imbalance would not change the G's on an airplane significantly. 3.8 G's is the upper limit for normal, 4.4 for utility and 6 for aerobatic (changes). I think your understanding of aircraft categories is wrong.

That is right on the money. A gross fuel imbalance might cause the airplane to be a little bit harder to control but by no means will it automatically cause a plane to spin. Remember that in order for a spin to occour BOTH wings must be stalled and a yawing moment must be introduced in order to get the airplane turning in one direction. As it pertains to an Cessna that I have flown, a fuel imbalance is to insignificant to produce a strong enough yawing moment to get the aircraft turning if stalled.

 

[usmarinemike]

If you are coordinated and there is nothing wrong with the plane (such as shit missing or broken), both wings will stall at the same time. Nothing will cause the autorotation and therefore no spin.

Best way of saying it yet now that we've beat this horse to death.

I do understand category even if I articulated it wrong earlier. Makes me look like an ass, I know, but there's a good movie on right now. Thanks for putting me in line.

 

[Single Seat]

Aircraft categories mainly have to do with negative and positive G limitations. A fuel imbalance would not change the G's on an airplane significantly. 3.8 G's is the upper limit for normal, 4.4 for utility and 6 for aerobatic (changes). I think your understanding of aircraft categories is wrong.

If you are coordinated and there is nothing wrong with the plane (such as shit missing or broken), both wings will stall at the same time. Nothing will cause the autorotation and therefore no spin.

Those G limitations are a direct limitation to what you're allowed to do with the airplane, i.e. spins. I'm way to impatient to get into a huge aerodynamics debate.

 

[EvilGN]

I've got a question. I was out yesterday evening flying and I didn't have anywhere to go, so I was doing some manuevers. I was having a lot of fun with Lazy 8's and things when I went into some power on stalls. Well, I was staring inside at the gauges a little too much when the a/c stalled, it entered a good spin. I wasn't expecting it, and luckly I was high enough to recover. But it wasn't me that recovered the a/c. It just stopped spinning. This exposed a real weakness in my flying. Does anyone here have any suggestions on conducting good spin training and maybe the acronyms for recovery? I'd ask an instructor type, but they are on vacation and why not ask the pros?

If I am understanding your original post right, you think you entered a spin while doing a power on stall? Some people have touched on this but you were NOT in a spin, if the airplane yawed, it was due to P-factor and that would be closer to an approach turn stall, (ATS). If you did not use rudder to induce a yaw, and hold rudder to keep the yaw going while the A/C stalled, then again you were not in a spin. I do spins and approach turn stalls in the T-6 quite a bit, and I have done "power on" approach turn stalls that force the A/C to roll uncommanded (fun manuever btw). I assume the 172 does not have enough p-factor to cause that type of ATS to occur.

Either way, most A/C with dihedral wings will recover from any type of Out of Control Flight by going idle power and physically neutralizing the controls, even a spin.

 

[usmarinemike]

If I am understanding your original post right, you think you entered a spin while doing a power on stall? Some people have touched on this but you were NOT in a spin, if the airplane yawed, it was due to P-factor and that would be closer to an approach turn stall, (ATS). If you did not use rudder to induce a yaw, and hold rudder to keep the yaw going while the A/C stalled, then again you were not in a spin. I do spins and approach turn stalls in the T-6 quite a bit, and I have done "power on" approach turn stalls that force the A/C to roll uncommanded (fun manuever btw). I assume the 172 does not have enough p-factor to cause that type of ATS to occur.

Either way, most A/C with dihedral wings will recover from any type of Out of Control Flight by going idle power and physically neutralizing the controls, even a spin.

The voice of reason and EXPERIENCE...Rep(even though I don't have much to give).

 

[wiseguy04]

Look how many spins we do in the -34... Cant think of one that spun all the way down.. (I'm sure there is one, but I cant recall it)

Exactly what I was thinking. It amazes me when I think of how many hundreds of spins we got in the -34 to the point where it became second nature. Something we definitely didn't get in IFS!! (granted it was only 25 hours...)

/Begin Threadjack/ "How's the move to Kingsville going?" /End Threadjack/

 

[White_Male]

I think the logic behind the FAA doing the "no spin training required until CFI" is that they would rather have you learn how to avoid it. I don't think makes sense. I think that it would be good to include it.

To the original poster's question.

PARE

Power - Idle
Ailerons - Neutral
Rudder - opposite direction of spin to stop rotation
Eelavator- Push down to break stall

That is the basic recovery procedure.

Another note, which you may or may not have heard before. Control a stall using rudder. Do not mess with the ailerons. In other words, if you do a power on stall and it breaks to the right, step on the high wing, or the left wing in the case. always step on that high wing. And don't mess around with it either. Go ahead and put just about all of the rudder in. You will probably over correct but then you just have to step on the other wing and at that point you have an idea of how much rudder to put in. So, the key is to use the rudder and always step on the high wing.

 

[White_Male]

The spin was unintentional. A Cardinal is not approved for spins. Yes, it was a spin, I have done a lot of steep spirals and this was diffently a spin. It was my own fault. I had fixated on the EGT/CHT readings. I didn't realize I had done so until I was on the ground thinking about what had happened and what I should learn from it. It is too bad spin training is not a requirement until CFI training. You can do solo stall training as a student training to get your PPL, but no spin training is given.

Thanks for the acronym P.A.R.E. when the instructor gets back maybe we'll take the Pitts up and work through this problem.

Was your airspeed moving around or staying constant or do you remember? If you were really in a spin, it would have been staying constant.

 

[GaugeNeeded]

Yes, I promise it was a spin. I have done all manuevers many times before, to include steep spirals. I've since looked my experience up in books and on video. It was a spin. I am also aware that the RG is not approved for spins. That's why I am going to try and get the CFI into a Pitts Special to work on my experience. As I read through other posts I feel I need to clarify something as well. There is another Devil Dog on here utilizing the same avatar as me. I can see where some people may be responding to both Marines posts. I don't have any rep power and I don't need to go into the negatives!

 

[FLY_USMC]

I do spins and approach turn stalls in the T-6 quite a bit, and I have done "power on" approach turn stalls that force the A/C to roll uncommanded (fun manuever btw).

Having had the opportunity to fly both, I can say with confidence the T-6 spins like shiat, real men spin the T-37 Caveated with real men not in the Chair Force.

 

[usmarinemike]

I can see where some people may be responding to both Marines posts. I don't have any rep power and I don't need to go into the negatives!

You think I'm reckless? Nobody gives out bad rep on honest disagreements. I've never had a bad rep given so don't be worried about it. You only get bad rep around here for being a total idiot.

You did steal my avatar though.:icon_wink