Sounds like change is coming...

[MasterBates]

Andrews7

You have been talking big with not a whole lot to back it up with, other than telling us "how it is and how it is going to be"

It's rubbing me and some other guys the wrong way.

I know you are antsy to be able to come out of the closet and all, but chill the fuck out.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Insult me if you want, but DADT is going to be a thing of the past.

So, are you on the President-elects personal staff?

Those Officers and Sailors who have problems dealing with or accepting homosexuals (including hypothesizing that it may be an illness) will probably find their careers cut short.

Or are you the incoming SecDef?

I'm sure that groups like the ACLU are just waiting to make an example out of someone. The military has a lot of changes coming, and the last thing it needs is another scandal.

They have tried and failed. Fortunately, the Supreme Court has always ruled/upheld the notion that the military is different from the general public in that the "good order and discipline" required of a military member means that sometime they give up rights accorded to civilians.

 

[swerdna]

Andrews7

You have been talking big with not a whole lot to back it up with, other than telling us "how it is and how it is going to be"

It's rubbing me and some other guys the wrong way.

I know you are antsy to be able to come out of the closet and all, but chill the fuck out.

That's too bad that it's "rubbing" you and others the wrong way. But you don't have a choice in the matter-it's the future Commander in Chief's decision. Deal with it.

 

[lmnop]

That's too bad that it's "rubbing" you and others the wrong way. But you don't have a choice in the matter-it's the future Commander in Chief's decision. Deal with it.

No, the policy change is the future Commander in Chief's decision. Unless you're currently on a conference call with him and your condescending tone is by his direction, then it's all you.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Get used to the idea, some of the guys you went through flight school with were gay, some of the IPs you flew with were gay, and many of the sailors that will serve under your command will be gay.

You don't think there are gay flight students or IPs? Or squadron COs for that matter? If you think they're not everywhere, you're wrong. That's not salt, it's common sense.

Yes midn09, there are some. But I think you'll find it is a lot fewer than you believe, especially as they gain more rank.

Most gay rights outfits claim that 10% of the population is gay. Since an organization is making that claim, you historically cut that number at least in half. But even if it is 10%, very few of those 10% would join the military. The military mindset and culture is not that which is nornally found in this group of individuals - much like there are far fewer liberals than conservatives in the military and especially the more senior military memebers.

 

[exhelodrvr]

Yes midn09, there are some. But I think you'll find it is a lot fewer than you believe, especially as they gain more rank.

Most gay rights outfits claim that 10% of the population is gay. Since an organization is making that claim, you historically cut that number at least in half. But even if it is 10%, very few of those 10% would join the military. The military mindset and culture is not that which is nornally found in this group of individuals - much like there are far fewer liberals than conservatives in the military and especially the more senior military memebers.

That figure has been "de-bunked" - it originated with some poorly worded questions on the surveys that were used for the Kinsey report. The generally accepted figure now is that 2-5% of the population is gay. But I don't know about the "mindset and culture" keeping them from joining; I have read studies (several years ago, and don't have links, sorry.) that said it was actually the opposite, particularly with lesbians. The military culture attracted them.

 

[exhelodrvr]

That's too bad that it's "rubbing" you and others the wrong way. But you don't have a choice in the matter-it's the future Commander in Chief's decision. Deal with it.

You might want to re-think your attitude. The success or failure of gays in the military, no matter what the specifics of the policy are, depends primarily on their acceptance by those who currently have questions about the wisdom of that decision. And your snottiness is not helping at all.

 

[xj220]

particularly with lesbians. The military culture attracted them.

Hell, you don't need a study to tell you that.

 

[HAL Pilot]

But I don't know about the "mindset and culture" keeping them from joining; I have read studies (several years ago, and don't have links, sorry.) that said it was actually the opposite, particularly with lesbians. The military culture attracted them.

I've heard "Fag" (not talking about Fighter-Attack Guys), gay bashing and anti-gay rhetoric in the military than I have ever heard in the civilian world. Further, I never once saw a Sailor discharge for homosexuality where the other men in the squadron/in the ship's crew said "too bad". In fact, it was usually "good riddance". Now I've been retired for 10 years and it may be changing, but that is the "mind set and culture" I'm talking about. How many gay men would want to become a part of that? And if they did join, how many would want to stay after being subjected to that? (Hence the fewer senior gays comment).

As a rule of thumb, people don't join organizations where historically they have not been welcome.

It might have been different with the women and lesbians so maybe there are more of them in the military as a result.

I don't have any "facts" to back this up, but that is what I observed over a 20 year span in both the Navy and Army.

 

[HAL Pilot]

That's too bad that it's "rubbing" you and others the wrong way. But you don't have a choice in the matter-it's the future Commander in Chief's decision. Deal with it.

Much like you will have to "deal with it" if DADT remains. It's not the CINC's decison alone and there is a good chance changing it will not get through Congress.

 

[exhelodrvr]

How many gay men would want to become a part of that? And if they did join, how many would want to stay after being subjected to that?

As a rule of thumb, people don't join organizations where historically they have not been welcome.

I retired 12 years ago, so was in during roughly the same period as you. I served with a number of people, some officer, some enlisted, who were pretty obviously gay, although they did not make verbal public statements to that effect. I roomed with someone for awhile that I suspected was gay; found out several years later that he was. All of them were good sailors/officers, and I had no problems working with them. But rooming with someone who was gay for a deployment? I would not be comfortable with that; I also think that is a reasonable, not-discriminatory attitude, and I personally think that they should stick with DADT.

But why would they join? For the same reasons the rest of us did. Love of country, desire to fly, the adventure, etc.

 

[The Chief]

Thanks for clearning all this up for me!

I always thought that "getting rid" of DADT meant going back to the old policy of "hunt em down, smoke em out .... get rid of em".:tongue2_1:tongue2_1 Guess not, huh?

 

[HueyCobra8151]

I am NOT going to ask if someone on this thread is a condescending douche...I hope he does NOT tell...

 

[Spekkio]

I've heard "Fag" (not talking about Fighter-Attack Guys), gay bashing and anti-gay rhetoric in the military than I have ever heard in the civilian world. Further, I never once saw a Sailor discharge for homosexuality where the other men in the squadron/in the ship's crew said "too bad". In fact, it was usually "good riddance". Now I've been retired for 10 years and it may be changing, but that is the "mind set and culture" I'm talking about. How many gay men would want to become a part of that? And if they did join, how many would want to stay after being subjected to that? (Hence the fewer senior gays comment).

As a rule of thumb, people don't join organizations where historically they have not been welcome.

It might have been different with the women and lesbians so maybe there are more of them in the military as a result.

I don't have any "facts" to back this up, but that is what I observed over a 20 year span in both the Navy and Army.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't women deal with the same very attitude once they were allowed to serve? Don't they still do to some extent? One of the female JGs in my class flips shit at any sort of hint of a female sexist joke.

 

[The Chief]

Much like you will have to "deal with it" if DADT remains. It's not the CINC's decison alone and there is a good chance changing it will not get through Congress.

I think your assessment is "right on". Bill Clinton was determined to allow gay folks in the military, mighty determined, ran into a firestorm and he backed off. His administration then concocted the DADT policy, Clinton took a lot of hits from the left-left crowd for DADT.

As I recall, the common berthing problem was often cited as reason for DADT. Sans DADT, allowing gays in the same berthing area was thought to significantly increase the already burgeoning sexual harrassment "claims".

Which of our allies already allows gays? ... Any others?

Well now, I think the USofA military allows gays, do we not? This only limits are you cannot be openly "gay" within the military confines. For protection of "gays", the military hiearchy is not even permitted to ask if you are gay.

What else is wanted?