Something about him always rubbed me the wrong way...

[Ducky]

I'm an Ensign by the way, not a firstie.

Let's not be honest, I'm sure NROTC mids do as much or more stupid crap than Academy mids, but the spotlight is not on them nearly as often and if the Academy ceased to exist, they would focus on NROTC mids doing dumb stuff all the more often.

Ensign/firstie- not much difference in the common sense and leadership department. Congrats on the commission though.

They are in the spotlight because they have shot endangerend birds and driven cars through houses and then leave the scene of the crime. On summer cruise active duty personel would "thank God" when they found out we werent from the academy because you're peers made such a good impression. Those are just the first few things of a long list of dumbshit things. Sure ROTC mids get in trouble but those take the cake.

I'm not here to argue what end product is better, but just realize that at the civie universities the spotlight is heavily on those in uniform. Have a big screw up at one of those liberal crazy schools and the school prez is ready to shitcan the units ASAP.

 

[statesman]

Driven cars through houses and then leave the scene of the crime.

Hey now Ducky as a former honorary Lobo I am surprised that you gave the Academy credit for that... that was a proud UNM NROTC alum...

You know him BTW... or at least you and MRS. DUCKY were there at the same time as he...

 

[MAKE VAPES]

Agreed, we CAN'T get rid of the academy ENTIRELLY, we CAN limit ascessions and cut officer production cost... Ok, problem with OCS berthing? UP ROTC ascessions (no berthing problems there!)...

I like the tuition idea, bring the total cost out the door for Freddies Finishing School for Boat Chugs in line with other production sources.

There are problems with each and every cost cutting initiative. For instance: Cut the Blue Angels entirelly... what is the impact? Less recruitment? Tell me the marginal recruiting power of each extra Blue Angel.... Blue AngelS become "The Blue ANGEL"? naw... lets cut number of airshows (drop in the bucket), that way we don't disrupt the contintinuity of the unsustainable.

Instinct tells me the Academy entrenchement WOULD be insurmountable, realization of USNA paternalism (and other BS) through this thread and budget cycle (besides making me throw up in my mouth a little) drives me to believe we will be a "Regional Force for Just Okayness" vice the charge "Global Force for Good".

Waiting for the angry mob of mids to knock on my door. BTW, have an awesome 4th of July brothers (gotta say stay safe, don't be a dumb-ass).

 

[EM1]

For the sake of arguement (since this has gone far off track anyway)

All your numbers work on the assumption that NROTC cost is solely sucked up in paying scholarships. This is not the case. To get the true cost of NROTC we not only have to account for the tuition, but also the cost of maintaining one CO, XO, 2-3 LTs, a MOI and a SSGT or above plus the civilian support staff at every unit nation wide. For the larger units that cost spreads out better, but in a small unit like here the cost per student is a bit higher. Also, there are uniforms, mandatory training events, competitions the units pay for, conferences the units pay for, the costs of sending people from individual units to various Navy mandated things (for someone here to get an undersea med screening they have to travel to Chicago, my trip cost the Navy about $500), midshipman allowances, etc. Private school and out of state tuitions are higher, some schools charge even more for engineering and nursing degrees (like KU) and we even havent even started to look at the true cost of 5th year benefits.

Not sure what the true cost is, I dont have all the numbers to even try to sit and figure it out, but I do know the true cost exceeds strictly the cost of tuition. From what I read the $250k number they came up with is what a private school would have charged had they provided all the schooling and extras that the USNA has.

 

[Pags]

For the sake of arguement (since this has gone far off track anyway)

All your numbers work on the assumption that NROTC cost is solely sucked up in paying scholarships. This is not the case. To get the true cost of NROTC we not only have to account for the tuition, but also the cost of maintaining one CO, XO, 2-3 LTs, a MOI and a SSGT or above plus the civilian support staff at every unit nation wide. For the larger units that cost spreads out better, but in a small unit like here the cost per student is a bit higher. Also, there are uniforms, mandatory training events, competitions the units pay for, conferences the units pay for, the costs of sending people from individual units to various Navy mandated things (for someone here to get an undersea med screening they have to travel to Chicago, my trip cost the Navy about $500), midshipman allowances, etc. Private school and out of state tuitions are higher, some schools charge even more for engineering and nursing degrees (like KU) and we even havent even started to look at the true cost of 5th year benefits.

Not sure what the true cost is, I dont have all the numbers to even try to sit and figure it out, but I do know the true cost exceeds strictly the cost of tuition. From what I read the $250k number they came up with is what a private school would have charged had they provided all the schooling and extras that the USNA has.

Those numbers are still far lower than USNA. USNA has to pay for a 3 star and all his staff, a huge number of officers that is much larger than the 6 or so Os that an NROTC unit has. Some of USNAs uniforms are specific to the USNA. Thos summer working blues will never be worn again. Neither will the silly parade uniforms. Oh, and they have an academic staff on top of the military establishment and the upkeep of the expansive facilities.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Those numbers are still far lower than USNA. USNA has to pay for a 3 star and all his staff, a huge number of officers that is much larger than the 6 or so Os that an NROTC unit has. Some of USNAs uniforms are specific to the USNA. Thos summer working blues will never be worn again. Neither will the silly parade uniforms. Oh, and they have an academic staff on top of the military establishment and the upkeep of the expansive facilities.

You act as if no other school in the country gets federal funding, that only USNA/USMA/USAFA/USCGA/USMMA does... If you want to figure out the true cost - and if you're going to include academic staff, etc - better start taking a percentage of the academic staff at schools with NROTC units (some of whom are probably paid MUCH more than at USNA), equivalent to the percentage of federal funding the school gets.

Oh, and we buy our uniforms - they aren't provided for us.

EDIT - Notre Dame has a NROTC program. So a kid who's on a NROTC scholarship at Notre Dame's tuition is $153,908 (for four years). Throw in all the military summer training and travel back and forth, and all of a sudden - it's not "far lower"... There's a reason the Academies are still around, and it's not just because of tradition.

EDIT Numero Dos - If a kid a Notre Dame stays for 4.5 years on NROTC scholarship, his tuition is $173,146. Add in his monthly allowance, and you've got $186,446 just paid while he's at school...

 

[EM1]

Pags: I agree, however, you still have to multiply that 6 or so Os per unit by the number of units nation wide (72). That's not a small number. Just look at the combined O-6 pay. For the O6's, if you assume 16 years of service for each of them (probably low, both of mine here have had over 20) in base pay alone that's $594288 per month (72*8254 per month) for people that could possibly have retired before their final NROTC tour. forget BAH and all the other pays and allowances they are drawing.

And, as an institution USNA gets funding beyond the Navy from alumni, sports, and sponsorships, which has to be counted in.

edit: and to add to the above, its dead on. EVERY student, public and private, is subsidized by the tax payer. grounds keeping and such is not covered by student tuition alone.

Oh yeah, and add in all those pell grants they're throwing at kids attending other institutions.

 

[exhelodrvr]

Maybe they could cut out desserts on board ship. That would save money and be healthier.

 

[Pags]

You act as if no other school in the country gets federal funding, that only USNA/USMA/USAFA/USCGA/USMMA does... If you want to figure out the true cost - and if you're going to include academic staff, etc - better start taking a percentage of the academic staff at schools with NROTC units (some of whom are probably paid MUCH more than at USNA), equivalent to the percentage of federal funding the school gets.

Oh, and we buy our uniforms - they aren't provided for us.

EDIT - Notre Dame has a NROTC program. So a kid who's on a NROTC scholarship at Notre Dame's tuition is $153,908 (for four years). Throw in all the military summer training and travel back and forth, and all of a sudden - it's not "far lower"... There's a reason the Academies are still around, and it's not just because of tradition.

EDIT Numero Dos - If a kid a Notre Dame stays for 4.5 years on NROTC scholarship, his tuition is $173,146. Add in his monthly allowance, and you've got $186,446 just paid while he's at school...

I don't really have a dog in this fight, just providing some more perspective. I don't care how valid the argument is, none of the service academies are going anywhere anytime soon. The only reason I really care about the service academies is because their priorities seem to be a microcosm of the fleets. When we're nine years into two wars and all you ever hear from USNA leadership is about diversity and football, it makes me wonder where their priorities really are. In the same time span, I haven't heard a peep of this sort of nonsense from USMA.

 

[phrogpilot73]

When we're nine years into two wars and all you ever hear from USNA leadership is about diversity and football, it makes me wonder where their priorities really are. In the same time span, I haven't heard a peep of this sort of nonsense from USMA.

I couldn't agree with you more. As an alumnus, I really, really, really disliked the current Supe (which is where I think the diversity & football priorities came from). I'm hoping that the incoming Supe will be better. Yes, I enjoy watching my school do well in football games - but not at the expense of what the Naval Academy's mission is.

And for every douche-nozzle bird killer/football junkie loser, there's probably 25 (or more) mids that are actually decent dudes that are doing the right thing every day. It's just when they hit the fleet - it's easier to identify/associate those bad behaviors with the Naval Academy because the percentage of Naval Academy grads is higher than any other school. Blaming USNA for the lackluster performance of a few is like blaming Virginia Tech for Michael Vick being a turd.

 

[helolumpy]

When we're nine years into two wars and all you ever hear from USNA leadership is about diversity and football, it makes me wonder where their priorities really are. In the same time span, I haven't heard a peep of this sort of nonsense from USMA.

Diversity is at the forefront of every service chiefs agenda right now.

It may not be USMA, but remember after the Fort Hood shooting General Casey went on the talking heads circuit and said (when referring to Major Hassan); “We have to be careful, because we can’t jump to conclusions now based on little snippets of information that have come out. As great a tragedy as this was, it would be a shame if our diversity became a casualty as well."

 

[Flash]

In the same time span, I haven't heard a peep of this sort of nonsense from USMA.

You don't hear about it because 1- You aren't in the Army and 2- Annapolis is far closer to DC than West Point. That may sound awfully simplistic but they are more true than you would think.

The Army and West Point has it's own share of issues, being in an Army dominated place now I am often find myself very thankful I am in the Navy every day. Lowest common denominator is a phrase that often comes to mind. I am sympathetic for the Naval Academy when it comes to the press, I grew up just 15 minutes from the Academy and with the bad news there it was often just a case of proximity, with Annapolis only 30 minutes from DC and the national press corps. Any hint of an issue there and reporters can hop in their cars, go there for lunch and be back before evening rush hour. So there is a lot more focus there simply because having to haul yourself up the Hudson to report on the boys and girls in the long gray line is much more of a pain in the ass, and Annapolis is a nice town too, especially for lunch or dinner. Kind of like 'line of sight tasking', sit outside the CO's door and you are always going to be busy, sit in the bowels of admin or maintenance and you are likely to be a bit less busy.

As for the overall value and cost I think that there are very solid and reasonable arguments for having the academies. They provide a guaranteed source of officers for all five services. Anyone aware of recent history knows how many colleges got rid of ROTC's during Vietnam, you are kidding yourself if you don't think that can't happen again. There is also something to be said about some 'diversity' from where the officer corps originates, with value added from someone being immersed in a military environment for several years. Some of my fellow ROTC graduates were surprisingly naive about some aspects of the military and did not take a lot of it too seriously at all, they balanced out the Academy burn-outs and the overly moto OCS guys who chewed their fellow Ensigns out for not being locked-on enough.

And I also think that there is a larger benefit in having national institutes of higher learning where service to the country is paramount and the youth of our nation are admitted on their merits. While there is always going to be a bit of favoritism for some the vast majority of cadets and midshipmen are there on their merits and all are there for one purpose, to serve their country. You can't say that about any other school, period. Combined with their widespread support among the populace for the opportunity they present and as an example of some of the better ideals of this country, I think they provide a value that goes far beyond what you can add up in monetary value alone. That, and phrogpilot73's numbers aren't a bad argument either.

 

[wlawr005]

I'll take a picture in the next few days. It's a wind-tunnel tested exact replica of the Navy's first aircraft from the Wright Brothers, the Navy B-1.

Also, I stand corrected, there is also a 10 minute or so video at Admissions that I guess was part of that $3.7M investment.

However, I would like to point out, and this is JUST for the Navy, not Marines as the two services do vary, but Naval Academy graduates are more inclined to stay in the service longer and be promoted higher than any other commissioning source, as per several NPS studies, and the same studies concluded that the Naval Academy, for the long term health of the Navy was the most cost-effective source of commissioning. And for the record, the study I'm referring to (if I can find it... I used it in a research paper for Economics), was NOT written by Academy alumni.

For the record, I'm not researching it or anything...but I'm pretty sure the Navy bought it's first aircraft from Glen Curtiss.

 

[Pags]

You don't hear about it because 1- You aren't in the Army and 2- Annapolis is far closer to DC than West Point.

Very salient points.

Annapolis is a nice town too, especially for lunch or dinner.

A scoop of a story followed by a crabcake lunch and maybe an ice cream cone from Kilwans? What's not to love?

And I also think that there is a larger benefit in having national institutes of higher learning where service to the country is paramount and the youth of our nation are admitted on their merits. While there is always going to be a bit of favoritism for some the vast majority of cadets and midshipmen are there on their merits and all are there for one purpose, to serve their country. You can't say that about any other school, period. Combined with their widespread support among the populace for the opportunity they present and as an example of some of the better ideals of this country, I think they provide a value that goes far beyond what you can add up in monetary value alone. That, and phrogpilot73's numbers aren't a bad argument either.

I agree that the ideals that the service academies support are great, but then they go and get tainted by, of all things, football. Football should never be the focal point of any of the Academies. Country and service would be good places to start. And I'm sure these are the focal points for the vast majority of folks who go there, but the leadership isn't helping the school by focusing on football.

 

[phrogpilot73]

A scoop of a story followed by a crabcake lunch and maybe an ice cream cone from Kilwans? What's not to love?

WTF is Kilwans?? If you're a true Annapolitan, you get your scoop at Storm Brothers...