Soldiers Sue Over Army’s Stop-Loss Policy

[Clux4]

Good point. Like make aviation contracts 4 years so I can go fly crop dusters over my fathers farm. In all honesty men, the draft will create problems but what do we do. They just raised our budget deficit a week or two ago. How much can we spend trying to entice people while maintaning adequate funds for Amo? You see the problem. Folks like me should forget about Social Security, but we cannot spend all our money on fighting war. Well, lets hope Iraq is productive.
Seriously this is a big problem nobody really has a solution for.

 

[Broadsword2004]

Hmmm, well I think pilots should keep their long service contracts if it costs a lot, because I believe it costs a lot to train a pilot, especially jet pilots. Just my opinion though.

As for "using the reservists as 'reserves,' " this is just my opinion moreso as well, as I haven't been in combat so some people may just tell me I need to STFU, but anyways, reserves are always called up in times warfare pretty much. In World War I, the German military consisted of about 2 million people. It went up to 13 million (big number) in ONE WEEK because they called up reserves right at the start of the war.

So I mean it isn't like reservists are there so that a country goes to war, starts losing men, and then is like, "Uh-oh, we need more men, get the reserve guys in here!" Reservists are called up from the start I believe.

Even at the end of the 1980s and in the very early 90s, the U.S. had a much larger military force because the Cold War had just ended and they hadn't slashed its size yet, yet they stilled called up a lot of reservists for the Gulf War.

I personally disagree right now with them suing the military. The military is the military. You give up your civilian benefits and freedoms when you join. If you signed up, oh well, crap happens. The reason I say this is because if you get a military where you can actually start questioning it on stuff like that, that overall in the end weakens it. One of the reasons the U.S. military is always effective pretty much is because the soldiers follow orders; they don't run and hide.

I think people need to question the military on this stuff of dropping the active-duty people and keeping the reserves moreso, so that the reserves aren't being "mis-used," however, individual soldiers aren't supposed to try to overrun the military (legally) like that unless what the military is doing is absolutely illegal or purely wrong, I'd think (like if the U.S. military orders you to just murder a group of civilians for no apparent reason or something).

The stop-loss can be instituted if the military needs to keep people. They should have read their contracts first. Yeah, it can be crappy, but that is the military. And the U.S. is involved in a lot of crap around the world right now.

Sorry for such a wordy argument, just wanted to make clear my point.

 

[Alex]

Lots of good viewpoints here on both sides of the fence. My take on the matter is that these lawsuits are a sympton of a much bigger problem - a military that is not optimally aligned for its current mission and, therefore, is effectively undermanned. The result is that the burden falls disproportionately on certain units. For example, only about 40 percent of the Army's reservists have been mobilized since 9-11. That means that 60 percent have not been called up. Nevertheless, by early 2004, about 40,000 Army reservists had been called up more than once, which raises the question of what the other 60 percent of Army reservists are doing while their brothers-in-arms are pulling double (and more) duty. A very interesting article on why the Army needs two more divisions and why the Bush administration is opposed to such action can be found at http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/04autumn/ohanlon.htm.

 

[airpirate25]

Vette, no question these guys are going to lose their case, and to back up Broadsword, perhaps it's best that they do to maintain discipline in the service. I think that comparing the current war in Iraq to WWII is a stretch though. Following 9-11, I think its fair to say everyone felt like we were being "invaded", and it seemed that our enemies were just as evil and determined as the Nazis. I can't imagine a red-blooded American kid that wouldn't want to go and do his or her duty. The problem is, whether it is true or not, our current administration seems to be taking advantage of this fact by using it as leverage to justify exhaustive military actions for alterior motives. I couldn't agree more that a soldier has to follow orders, good ones and bad ones alike, but that doesn't mean that our leaders should forget how other "illegal" actions turned out...ie, 1776, 1861. In 1941, you were either 4-F, a sissy or you joined up, that was our culture, and that was a war against nations, where we won when we marched into their capitol. This is a war on ideals, and perhaps can't be won. Are we going to demmand that part time soldiers be forced into military careers under wartime conditions when a large majority of our popluation, including the IRR and remaining reserves are free from service, just becasue we can legally? Like Alex said, lots of good views on the subject, but no clear soloution.

 

[VetteMuscle427]

I think something that isn't being emphasized enough is that these people aren't being held in service like they will never get out. They are being stop-lossed until they finish their tours.

Their active reserve committments are ending in the middle of their tours in country, and they think they should be able to leave their unit to come back.

In light of that, I will totally side with the Army <gasp> in the idea that you dont want to split a deployed unit, period. I am sure that once their unit rotates back, they will be released according to contract.

Now, a good question is... what kind of soldier would want to leave their buddies in the field and take the easy way out?

 

[sirenia]

I've been wanting to jump in for quite a while [having started the thread and all], but the last few posts have really highlighted the fact that there really is no good solution to the problem. Historically, in WWI and WWII, the war was fought more or less conventionally, with a specific enemy in mind, a recognizable enemy. The situation can't be more diametrically opposite to that today. I agree with Vette in that leaving your buddies in the field so you can go home because your contract let up is just really selfish [I'm fully aware that there are extenuating circumstances that would not be selfish]. The military is not a regular job, which anyone thinking of signing up should be fully aware of. And situations cannot always be predicted beforehand. Most of the fighting we see in Iraq today has very little to do with engaging an "organized militia". Logistically, too, the Army couldn't possibly round up those whose contracts are ending in the middle of a fight. It could hurt morale and break smooth operations within a unit.

Having said all that and, yes, I have never been on the front lines and so I do not know what it is really like, I do sympathize with those who have served our country for a long time and are being kept there longer instead of having other units mobilized.

Ambivalent? Yup, that's me on this subject.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Just becasue you "sign the line" so to speak doesn't mean you lose your rights not the least of which is the pursuit of happiness.

What exactly do you mean by "pursuit of happiness," and why is this a right in your opinion?

 

[helmet91]

Just an observation... it seems to me one of the biggest problems revolves around the folks who enlisted in the Guard and Reserves for college money and didn't think about the consequences of being deployed. Yeah, I'm sure it sucks to be away from your family make jacksh*t compared to your civilian job, BUT you enlisted knowing full well you could be sent off to some God-forsaken sandpit... Perhaps the recruiting practices of the Guard and Reserve need to harp less on free education and more on Honor, Duty, Country?

 

[VetteMuscle427]

Just an observation... it seems to me one of the biggest problems revolves around the folks who enlisted in the Guard and Reserves for college money and didn't think about the consequences of being deployed. Yeah, I'm sure it sucks to be away from your family make jacksh*t compared to your civilian job, BUT you enlisted knowing full well you could be sent off to some God-forsaken sandpit... Perhaps the recruiting practices of the Guard and Reserve need to harp less on free education and more on Honor, Duty, Country?

Bingo. I see this a lot on campus. Everyone is complaining that our local guard units have been activated <For homeland security, not Iraq> and that so many students are missing out on their education.

It iritated me so much that people expect to get something without being called up. It isn't "play soldier and get a free education."

Again... rough deal... you knew it could happen. Suck it up and move on.

 

[airpirate25]

Steve,
When I took my oath of office, and for every promotion thereafter, I voluntarially pledged to support and defend the Constitution. I don't recall signing any paper or swearing any oath that forfeighted my freedoms as an American citizen. Now, that doesn't mean that I or any other citizen can do "whatever makes them happy"; entering into a contractual obligation like joining the service is a perfect example. These guys agreed to serve under very ambiguous terms, but I am certain they were given assurances as what to "realistically" expect. using this information, they and their families planned how to cope, remember this is only a small part of their income, and I can tell you from experience, most civilian jobs don't like hiring reservists. Just because the government has the legal ability to push people to the max, doesn't give them the right to disregard the fact that these guys have lives outside the service. We are not adequatetly using available resources that are available, and the persistent irresponsibility of the government and the military should not be an excuse to exploit the next guy down the list. Last March, I lost two of my best sailors because the Navy set a limit on re-enlistments. Two months later, I was involuntarially transfered to the IRR due to what was explained as "budget constraints". I have heard similar stories from the other services. It's clear that we are taking advantage of the reserves because it's cheaper to put them on the line. I strongly agree that bad karma happens, and it's nothing new, but if we keep saying that on the organizational level, the end consequences could be a significantly weakened, demoralized and ineffective military. Sorry for the long-winded reply, but it has a lot more to it than simly saying "suck it up"

 

[Odom]

Bingo. I see this a lot on campus.

For someone still on campus you have a pretty strong opinion regarding folks in theater who have served out their contracts in full. I'm not saying these guys should sue, but they are real people, with real problems and real lives being disrupted, while the rest of the population is not forced to make any sacrifice. I hope when you become their leader one day, you develop more empathy for problems you don't understand and don't tell them to just suck it up.

 

[fc2spyguy]

They are real people who made a commitment to a country when they signed up to get money for college or what ever the reason. They are real people who should be willing to live up to their contract. They are real people who should realize this is a war unlike any this country has ever fought. I think the people who are sueing more than likely signed up for all the wrong reasons in the first place. They should have thought about that when they signed and realized what the potential outcomes were when they signed. Sorry, but the reserves have been called up in every major war. The reserves have been called up in this war and guess what, the war likely won't be over for some time.

 

[airpirate25]

Sorry to be offensive, but here's a thought...how many of us here have actually served over in Afghanistan or Iraq, or anywhere for that mind. To all of you guys still in training, or recently commissioned, don't be suprised if your opinions concerning "fair" and "reasonable" change after a few years of service. As an officer, you will face countless situations with your guys where the answers given by you here won't work.Sailors, soldiers and Marines typically want to do their duty...don't think that they forget family obligations, their own financial futures, and safety for the relatively small paycheck they get every month. Spyguy, you said the war wont be over for a while; guess what, you're right...are you married? How are you going to feel if you have to miss your kid being born because your six month deployment ended up lasting nine months? I'm certain you'd do your duty, but you'd probably be less pleased if you were on your way back, only to get turned around for another two months in order to provide security for the Olympics or some such event. Like I said sorry to rant.

 

[zab1001]

Sorry to be offensive, but here's a thought...how many of us here have actually served over in Afghanistan or Iraq, or anywhere for that mind. QUOTE]


Me.

These guys are in the wrong.

IMHO

 

[fc2spyguy]

Well, I've been in the Navy for 8 1/2 years now. Done several deployments and been foward deployed to Japan for two years. I'm not saying I've been in a long time or that I've been there and done that. However, there have been plenty of plans that I have had that have been changed due to being in the Navy. Missing family weddings/funerals haven't been around when a single one of my nieces/nephews were born and stuff like that. I signed up for a lifestyle that I knew would be different from civilian life. I did this knowing full well that at any point the Navy can send me some papers and ship me off to where ever the hell it is they need me. These people did the same thing. If they didn't realize that then that's their own damn fault, but I'm sure they weren't complaining when they cashed the paychecks.

My brother is in the Navy reserves as a corpsman. His unit has been given orders and they will be leaving in March for Iraq. I have another brother who is MI over in Korea. My Uncle retired a Brigadier General, other Uncle a former Harrier pilot, Grandfather was a WWII and Korea vet. Myself and my family are well aware of the sacrifices that are necessary to keep this country what it is. I don't really appreciate it when someone challenges me or anyone else as to what they've done. Because to tell you the truth it doesn't matter if you're in Afghanistan or in damn Pensacola going through primary. Everyone of us is making sacrifices that are necessary. If you served you served. That's all that matters. I could've gone on my knees to my detailer two years ago and it wouldn't have mattered what I said. I woulndn't have been going anywhere because at the time I only had 1 year at my current station. Minimum required activity tour is 24 months.

Sorry, just something that gets under my skin.