I had a SWO CO when the P-3 community tried the "CMO" thing...didn't turn out so well. I know it wasn't exactly a squadron in the traditional sense, but it was blatantly obvious he was out of his element.
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So you want to be a CAG (but can't)...
- Thread starter revan1013
- Start date
I had a SWO CO when the P-3 community tried the "CMO" thing...didn't turn out so well. I know it wasn't exactly a squadron in the traditional sense, but it was blatantly obvious he was out of his element.
Who's that guy in charge of scheduling at the league office?
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Yup.
Why not? Big Navy lets pilots drive ships, and from what I hear from people who actually drive ships for a living, not very well.
And this is where I stopped listening. You know why? Because it's the same tired, bullshit rhetoric from every TACAIR pilot in the Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force. That rotor trash can't comprehend/understand/learn what their job is. So with that, shipmate - you can kiss my ass.
Because the entirety of your argument is bullshit when the truth is spoken:
That's not exactly helping your argument.
Yeah, you got me there. Let's be honest, this is the only reason you decided to chime in on this issue in the first place. Not because you know what you're talking about or even care, you just felt it necessary to stand up for the little guy.
Nice try.
Brett
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Glad to hear that you know what I think now, and the motivation behind my post.Yeah, you got me there. Let's be honest, this is the only reason you decided to chime in on this issue in the first place. Not because you know what you're talking about or even care, you just felt it necessary to stand up for the little guy.
Nice try.
You have no idea what I know about, have experience with, or how I have formed my opinions. But keep thinking you know everything.
For what it's worth, I disagree with the way the Navy AND the Marine Corps do things. I'm not going to change it (for instance, why are VMM/HMM CO's ACE CO's? They screened for VMM/HMM command, not ACE command. But that's not going to change), but I can bitch about it.
I'm not sticking up for the little guy, just think that the argument about why a RW guy can't possibly see the big picture/make appropriate decisions is bullshit. Just like I think it's bullshit that a TACAIR guy in the USMC has about a snowball's chance in hell of being a MEU CO - no matter how the argument is made. It's fifedoms, plain and simple.
There may be some merit to the fiefdom train of thought, but when people use it as a catch-all for everything they don't like about how Big Navy does business, they lose all credibility. When you use it as a straw man instead of making a legitimate argument for why RW belongs in the CAGs office, everyone sees through the charade.
Brett
Brett
I think the CAG issue (as with all competitively selected positions) is that the people who were in those positions previously select up-and-coming guys who fit the mold the selectors envision.
Brett, I agree that there is a certain level of expertise that comes with being a pointy nose guy that helps when you are in the CAG role. The only counter I would have to that is why do they make E-2 pilots CAG? They wouldn't go anywhere near where the jets would, so they don't have the same level of "expertise", and I can remember talking to some E-2 pilot JO's that said all they did was fly circles and they didn't have a clue what went on in the tube. The point I'm making is that it boils down to what the person puts in to it and learns from it. I'm a helo guy and I know what a LFS/Alpha, etc are. I understand how the fuel ladder works and z-diagrams, and I haven't even flown in a jet. Sure, I've never dropped a bomb, the same as a jet guy hasn't ever shot a pirate. There is a lot of knowledge leaned from just operating in the airwing.
Sure, my opinion is probably a little biased, but I can say that a good majority of the guys who fly jets don't really understand what we as helos can do, but the opposite isn't true. I can say that on our last deployment where we flew off the carrier against pirates and in support of the Quest, which was 99% helo oriented, the jet guys got a good view of what we can do and it changed a lot of their stereotypes of the helicopter and it's capabilities.
The reality is that right now the Tailhook guys don't want to give up their hold on the CAG spot. If a helo bubba was selected it wouldn't be setting an Airwing up for failure because of the vetting needed to get that guy into the CAG role. I do think that as more mid-level officers get promoted there will be a shift mainly due in part to the older guys with their preconceived notions of helicopters only operating like the H-3 used to (pretty much ass and trash only) going away.
With all of that said, I doubt it will change anytime soon, and I'm ok with that. There are plenty of jet guys who can fill the role of CAG and it'll still get the job done. It is a bit frustrating that helo guys aren't selected but it doesn't make much difference, and I'll just fly my plane guard with my crayons and color while in the starboard-d.
Brett, I agree that there is a certain level of expertise that comes with being a pointy nose guy that helps when you are in the CAG role. The only counter I would have to that is why do they make E-2 pilots CAG? They wouldn't go anywhere near where the jets would, so they don't have the same level of "expertise", and I can remember talking to some E-2 pilot JO's that said all they did was fly circles and they didn't have a clue what went on in the tube. The point I'm making is that it boils down to what the person puts in to it and learns from it. I'm a helo guy and I know what a LFS/Alpha, etc are. I understand how the fuel ladder works and z-diagrams, and I haven't even flown in a jet. Sure, I've never dropped a bomb, the same as a jet guy hasn't ever shot a pirate. There is a lot of knowledge leaned from just operating in the airwing.
Sure, my opinion is probably a little biased, but I can say that a good majority of the guys who fly jets don't really understand what we as helos can do, but the opposite isn't true. I can say that on our last deployment where we flew off the carrier against pirates and in support of the Quest, which was 99% helo oriented, the jet guys got a good view of what we can do and it changed a lot of their stereotypes of the helicopter and it's capabilities.
The reality is that right now the Tailhook guys don't want to give up their hold on the CAG spot. If a helo bubba was selected it wouldn't be setting an Airwing up for failure because of the vetting needed to get that guy into the CAG role. I do think that as more mid-level officers get promoted there will be a shift mainly due in part to the older guys with their preconceived notions of helicopters only operating like the H-3 used to (pretty much ass and trash only) going away.
With all of that said, I doubt it will change anytime soon, and I'm ok with that. There are plenty of jet guys who can fill the role of CAG and it'll still get the job done. It is a bit frustrating that helo guys aren't selected but it doesn't make much difference, and I'll just fly my plane guard with my crayons and color while in the starboard-d.
It was explained to me as FNG as: "people generally understand the battle space below them better than that above them" and I've found that's usually a fairly accurate stereotype... except for Osprey guys, who can't even understand a compass, let alone airspace.
/asshole jet guy
You're making my point here. I never said it should be a pointy-nosed guy, but it has to be someone who does strike warfare (Prowlers and Hummers included). The E-2 guys control the strike. They have experience at planning and executing strike. It's their primary mission. The fact that this is lost on you proves my point. Just because some random E-2 JOs don't know what's going on just means they're your average mid-tour JO who hasn't matured in platform yet. The experienced guys know exactly what's going on, pilot or NFO.
You're right, we don't want to give up our CAG spots because we're the only ones truly qualified to fill them. You can argue this issue from a fairness point of view, but what in life (or the fleet) is fair? What you can't do is argue that RW has the same kind of experience at strike warfare as the TACAIR guys. To the extent that Naval Aviation places value in that experience, the status quo persists. Anyone who has been to the flag panel at Hook hears this question asked nearly every year. I'm not just making this stuff up to piss off the RW guys, it's the policy as articulated by multiple generations of Air Boss.
Brett
The "who" was Naval Aviation leadership (Flag Officers).
Brett touched on one of the big "whys". The other significant factor was to ensure that each community has a sufficient opportunity to play for Flag. Since HS guys (this was before the big helo train wreck... eer Helo Master Plan) were the only helo bubbas who could get CVN command, it was determined that helo guys had ample promotion opportunity through the deep draft pipeline so they didn't NEED CAG as a possibility.
The helo guys argue that if you're going to allow VS &VAW to be a CAG, the a Helo CAG isn't much different.
But IMO, CAG should be leading the strike over the beach. Tough to do that from Plane Guard.....
Also since CAG is typically the Strike Group Strike Warfare Commander, therefore he/she needs to be very knowledgeable in Power Projection ashore, and helo guys typically are not "fluent" in that area.
1. "Leadership is leadership." Sure, but making time critical decisions at sea about alert postures, target selections, emergency recovery procedures requires intimate and extensive knowledge based on years of experience. To make the comparison that was used earlier is folly. Comparing a COCOM to a CAG is comparing apples (CAG) to big fucking oranges (COCOM). CAG is an operator - an operator who does the bidding of the COCOM and higher national command authority. That CAG had damned well better understand the ins and outs of his airwing's capabilities. Strike Group admirals are not required to be aviators - are you advocating placing someone in command of an airwing who is unfamiliar with the most dynamic mission sets and then having them work for a shoe admiral? In your case that's entirely possible - and frightening.
which leads here...
2. I've seen one (1) helo skipper who routinely stuck his head in on strike mission planning cells. He would come hang out in CATCC during recoveries. He would fly with whatever fixed wing squadrons could hook him up. He was always in AWF debriefs and, generally speaking, made a concerted effort to learn how the rest of the air wing thought, planned, briefed, and operated. Again, he was the only one. That's not an indictment of all the others, but many of them were too busy micromanaging their own DHs and trying to unscrew self inflicted injuries and unforced errors to care too much about anyone else on the O-3 level. That last sentence might ruffle some feathers as it's misinterpreted into "helo guys suck" - that is not at all what I wrote. This is a comparison between one helo guy who SHOULD be a CAG and others who were barely hanging on.
3. Ottowrote8 isn't an O-6 yet - so all of this is moot...
which leads here...
2. I've seen one (1) helo skipper who routinely stuck his head in on strike mission planning cells. He would come hang out in CATCC during recoveries. He would fly with whatever fixed wing squadrons could hook him up. He was always in AWF debriefs and, generally speaking, made a concerted effort to learn how the rest of the air wing thought, planned, briefed, and operated. Again, he was the only one. That's not an indictment of all the others, but many of them were too busy micromanaging their own DHs and trying to unscrew self inflicted injuries and unforced errors to care too much about anyone else on the O-3 level. That last sentence might ruffle some feathers as it's misinterpreted into "helo guys suck" - that is not at all what I wrote. This is a comparison between one helo guy who SHOULD be a CAG and others who were barely hanging on.
3. Ottowrote8 isn't an O-6 yet - so all of this is moot...
you've answered your own question and then went full "woe is me" mode.?.
People who had their sterotypes of helo guys busted during your anti-piracy ops were narrow minded to begin with and do not represent the rest of TACAIR. The guys in your E-2 example, c'mon, that's a red herring. The dude's who are in the CAG conversation know that mission inside and out and are the dudes with the most SA in the battle space. Most mature CVW aviators know full well the value of solid HSC and HSM crews. We know what you can bring to the fight and how we can all make each other look better. The heart of the matter is overland STRIKE warfare. It's not a matter of fairness like everything else in the Navy that has taken an egalitarian lean lately...