Single Seater or 2?

[Swanee]

Someone once told me that the WSO in a marine F-18 is more of an Airborne FAC. Any truth to that?

I also find it interesting that someone mentioned the loss of SA that caused the AF Viper crash in Iraq a couple months ago. Some people want to give him a medal. Then there are others that say he didn't make a conscious decision that put himself in harms way, he screwed up and didn't follow procedure.

It is interesting that the last 2 seater to go to war in the AF is going to be the Mudhen. The family model Vipers pretty much don't see combat with anyone in the back seat. The AF has been moving away from 2 seats since the late 70s, even the 2 seat A-10 was scrapped.

Perhaps it's the cockiness of the AF fighter jocks about how it's their airplane and no one else's, but it's odd that the AF tries to give more SA through technology, whereas the Navy promotes more aircrew interdependence. In fact, some AF guys like to comment that the WSO's (both Navy and AF) are part of a jobs program and not much more.

I don't mean to keep coming back to the AF, but it's what I know more about and am trying to get a better grip on Naval Aviation.

 

[Brett327]

it's odd that the AF tries to give more SA through technology, whereas the Navy promotes more aircrew interdependence.

Still more uninformed blather. I have no idea how you came to this conclusion.

Brett

 

[invertedflyer]

Someone once told me that the WSO in a marine F-18 is more of an Airborne FAC. Any truth to that?

I also find it interesting that someone mentioned the loss of SA that caused the AF Viper crash in Iraq a couple months ago. Some people want to give him a medal. Then there are others that say he didn't make a conscious decision that put himself in harms way, he screwed up and didn't follow procedure.

It is interesting that the last 2 seater to go to war in the AF is going to be the Mudhen. The family model Vipers pretty much don't see combat with anyone in the back seat. The AF has been moving away from 2 seats since the late 70s, even the 2 seat A-10 was scrapped.

Perhaps it's the cockiness of the AF fighter jocks about how it's their airplane and no one else's, but it's odd that the AF tries to give more SA through technology, whereas the Navy promotes more aircrew interdependence. In fact, some AF guys like to comment that the WSO's (both Navy and AF) are part of a jobs program and not much more.

I don't mean to keep coming back to the AF, but it's what I know more about and am trying to get a better grip on Naval Aviation.

Tell that to some E-model F-15 drivers.... Theres aircrews in every service although the AF does have a considerable stake in air superiority. But then you have to look at the B-1B and B-2 crews as well. Its all about teamwork, no matter what service.

 

[A4sForever]

Some of you guys are a "hard sell".

IT'S ALWAYS THE INDIVIDUAL !!! THE 'PILOT', if you will. He's either very good, or he's a target. It's the MAN/MEN, their doctrine, and their training that crew the machine and "make" the machine what it is to get the job done ...!!!!!

It's NEVER been any different !!!

Example: the F-15's out of Tyndall were generally "meat" on the table for the wily A-4 bogey )) .... but one day, out came "LtCOL Whatever" who had flown F-4's in Vietnam leading a 4-plane ... he and I got spit out of the larger furr-ball and there we went: up and down, round 'n round until "knock it off" was called for the overall engagement ....

Later, in the debrief, he was "ecstatic", to say the least. He maintained it was one of the few times he had ever been able to "max perform" the F-15 as a "pure fighter" .... it wasn't that he "couldn't" ... it's just that "they didn't" .... but when given the "opportunity" .... away he went, with a vengance. He was very good ...

It's the man ... single seat .... or the crew .. two seat. Not the machine .... it helps to be sitting astride the best available technology, but it's still only the horse you ride into battle.

Believe it.

 

[Single Seat]

Perhaps it's the cockiness of the AF fighter jocks about how it's their airplane and no one else's, but it's odd that the AF tries to give more SA through technology, whereas the Navy promotes more aircrew interdependence. In fact, some AF guys like to comment that the WSO's (both Navy and AF) are part of a jobs program and not much more.

I don't mean to keep coming back to the AF, but it's what I know more about and am trying to get a better grip on Naval Aviation.

Blah blah blah USAF blow hard BS. I know Navy WSO's that are still junior O-3's that have seen more combat than just about every F-15C pilot in the AF. And by combat I mean putting bombs on bad guys and getting shot at, not boring holes in the sky during Southern Watch wondering if there will be hot starbucks when they land.

 

[Brett327]

Blah blah blah USAF blow hard BS. I know Navy WSO's that are still junior O-3's that have seen more combat than just about every F-15C pilot in the AF. And by combat I mean putting bombs on bad guys and getting shot at, not boring holes in the sky during Southern Watch wondering if there will be hot starbucks when they land.

For the record, there's no Starbucks in PSAB, but I whole-heartedly agree with your point.

Brett

 

[Single Seat]

For the record, there's no Starbucks in PSAB, but I whole-heartedly agree with your point.

Brett

I'm sure their scrounging up something expensive. I'd like to see them choke down the silver can no-name boat coffee we drink, after it's cooked down for a cycle or four. Pussies.

 

[Brett327]

I'm sure their scrounging up something expensive. I'd like to see them choke down the silver can no-name boat coffee we drink, after it's cooked down for a cycle or four. Pussies.

FWIW, the Navy Prowler folk carried on the tradition of autodog connoisseurs while I was there. In fact, we engaged in a game in which the goal was to get the "Dog Low Lite" to illuminate. This was no small feat, as it required at least a dozen committed JOs to line up to repeatedly fill their bowls, including one person to distract the TCN who would inevitably emerge from the kitchen (Dog laden bucket in hand) to service the machine as it started to groan and grind to a halt - mission accomplished!

Brett

 

[Flash]

FWIW, the Navy Prowler folk carried on the tradition of autodog connoisseurs while I was there. In fact, we engaged in a game in which the goal was to get the "Dog Low Lite" to illuminate. This was no small feat, as it required at least a dozen committed JOs to line up to repeatedly fill their bowls, including one person to distract the TCN who would inevitably emerge from the kitchen (Dog laden bucket in hand) to service the machine as it started to groan and grind to a halt - mission accomplished!

Brett

Ahhhhh, the fun times in PSAB.........not.........

 

[phrogpilot73]

Maybe I'm too Old School, but doesn't the Navy/Marine Corps subscribe to a 2 seat method for all FAC(A) qualifications?

Not necessarily old school, but more like "not up with the times." MAWTS-1 has developed a FAC(A) syllabus for the AV-8B Harrier (clearly single seat). I don't know where it is in the approval process, but last I heard we were either close, or there on producing Harrier FAC(A)'s.

 

[HeyJoe]

Not necessarily old school, but more like "not up with the times." MAWTS-1 has developed a FAC(A) syllabus for the AV-8B Harrier (clearly single seat). I don't know where it is in the approval process, but last I heard we were either close, or there on producing Harrier FAC(A)'s.

Who am I to question MAWTS, but not only has FAC(A) been province of two seaters (although USAF uses A-10 and F-16), you (without saying) need to have some meaningful on station time, which isn't the strong hand for the Harrier. Oh well.

 

[HeyJoe]

To FAC(A) or not to FAC(A)

Someone once told me that the WSO in a marine F-18 is more of an Airborne FAC. Any truth to that?

Both Navy and Marines fly FAC(A) mission (Tomcat introduced Navy to that role and it is continued in the F/A-18F). It would be improper to state that a WSO in either service is more of an Airborne FAC as it is an assigned mission, not the only thing they do (ie it could be the mission du jour or not)

 

[jarhead]

Not necessarily old school, but more like "not up with the times." MAWTS-1 has developed a FAC(A) syllabus for the AV-8B Harrier (clearly single seat). I don't know where it is in the approval process, but last I heard we were either close, or there on producing Harrier FAC(A)'s.

Single seat Hornet guys are already earning the FAC(A) qual. The syllabus was approved early last year and the T&R manual was updated soon after.

Whether or not single seat FAC(A) is as effective as two seat FAC(A) is debatable. My opinion ... in all this "Jointness", the Corps is setting itself up to continue to be the SME of FAC(A) when it looses the F/A-18D to the single seat F-35.

It's always pointed out that the F-16 & A-10 does FAC(A). What they do is more like SCAR, not true FAC(A). Also, a major tenet of FAC(A) is coordinating ground fires such as artillery or mortars, something I seriously doubt an AF guy knows anything about.

S/F

 

[FMRAM]

FWIW, the Navy Prowler folk carried on the tradition of autodog connoisseurs while I was there. In fact, we engaged in a game in which the goal was to get the "Dog Low Lite" to illuminate. This was no small feat, as it required at least a dozen committed JOs to line up to repeatedly fill their bowls, including one person to distract the TCN who would inevitably emerge from the kitchen (Dog laden bucket in hand) to service the machine as it started to groan and grind to a halt - mission accomplished!

Brett

Ahh the PSAB chow hall...
I genuinely loved that place. The food was decent and it was a welcome break from work. It was also prime ooogleing territory for the cute little SF chicks.

 

[Flash]

Ahh the PSAB chow hall...
I genuinely loved that place. The food was decent and it was a welcome break from work. It was also prime ooogleing territory for the cute little SF chicks.

The USAF usually has the best looking chicks.........even in the middle of the friggin desert........