Ok, you guys win. I'll keep my mouth shut.
I did.
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Should Offensive Material be censored?
- Thread starter jander12
- Start date
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
No one's telling you to stfu. There's just a distinct difference between outdoors public spaces and schools/universities -- or, in the case of the Navy, a ship.
I think that Flash would agree that writing that quote on a white board is relatively benign. But the fact is that it made people uncomfortable enough to complain about it . Then there's part of it erased -- was that the 'real' offensive part? But the main point is that schools and universities have to maintain an orderly, accepting environment for all students and if publicly posting Bible scripture is not facilitating that environment, they not only have a right but also an obligation to have the student/faculty remove it. Religion can be a touchy subject for a lot of people; there's a reason it's one of the off-limits topics in the wardroom.
No one's taking away your right to put obnoxious bumper stickers on your car as a civilian, or even to wear clothing with American flags on Cinco de Mayo and scream "'MURICA" to every Latino you see, but while you're a civilian it's also not the USAFA's or DoD's problem if you get punched in the face in a retail parking lot for doing so. When it becomes their problem, they're going to rightfully tell you to knock it off.
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Thank you for pointing out what the coagulating Walmart patrio-bots the Internet over refuse to recognize. There's a difference between students wearing the image of a flag (ethics of that aside) and wearing it deliberately in opposition to a Mexican holiday. I think my country is pretty cool, but it disappoints me that its loudest representatives crap all over other cultures with hateful screams of red, white and bullshit.
As for the religion argument at hand—I think the only thing that matters in this case is whether the verse on the whiteboard constituted an official endorsement from the USAFA per any existing regulations. Did we already establish that was the case, or is it a gray area? Also, what are students able to write on those boards? If it's business-only content—that is, a space where somebody's personal opinions or motivational quotes shouldn't be scribbled— then the verse should have been erased and the student should have written it up in their private space. Your opinion isn't welcome everywhere, and religion is no more sacred than an opinion in that it should not garner any additional respect from non-subscribers.
(That said, I think some non-believers victimize themselves way too much in the face of religious content, and I say that as a committed atheist).
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And we wonder why the U.S. has a 17.5 trillion dollar debt. Because a few little girls get all bent out of shape over something as innocuous as a Bible verse. I'm being facetious of course. Wait...squirrel!
This really needs to be a rock band.
LFCFan
*Insert nerd wings here*
Pretend for a moment that the universe was backwards and Jews were terrorizing the west and Muslims were the only democracy in the middle east: if you made one that said "Say hello to Yahweh" or just "G-d" (vice with an o) I'm pretty sure people would argue that it is antisemetic.
I definitely understand the scenario. And I think your assessment is correct. To further clarify, I understand how my posting was insulting, but insulting Islam wasn't my intention at the time. I was young(er) and this nation was at war with predominately Muslim people (for the record, I am NOT saying all Muslims are terrorists/enemies).
Ok... I guess I just wrongly inferred these statements.
Just as it's intensely personal for a lot of non-Christian to not be evangelized at every turn, it is also intensely personal for a lot of Christians to have their faith as an integral, foundational, and instructive part of their lives. It should be plain that there are a decent number on both sides of that equation who do not consider the other person's desires. Thing is, each Christian is different, just as each non-Christian is different. But every one of these cases seems to be handled from the outset with broad brushes. Both sides then feel victimized and persecuted, when in fact it was one inconsiderate person or group that created a problem in the first place.
I think a bulk of the solution is to be found in treating people as individuals, y'know, kinda like how the country was founded and run for a long time. Somehow, an active disestablishment of one religion by a government entity smacks (to me) of a practice of religious establishment, even though it is in a negative direction. Just as some hypersensitive individuals see one faith projected above all others, plenty of that faith feel the opposite is going on, just as much. There are certainly many more people who should alter their own behavior and perceptions to effect a solution, possibly in the neighborhood of 300 million. But persecuting one group to alleviate another's persecution is not the solution this nation was founded to find or enforce.
It's a sticky situation as long as ad hominem attacks and universal victimhood are the weapons of choice. I personally find it instructive that chaplains are a longstanding component of military order, and predominantly Christian ones (due to supply and demand). Heck, they're part of HFB's, SAPR, DAPA, CACO, and many other official programs for individual and group mental health and welfare. It is officially recognized that there is value in including matters of the spirit in operations.
Sure, our free speech can be, and often is curtailed for the benefit of our ops and our position in government. But situations like this very strongly seem to be fear reactions to outspoken special interests, rather than well-considered policy decisions.
I think a bulk of the solution is to be found in treating people as individuals, y'know, kinda like how the country was founded and run for a long time. Somehow, an active disestablishment of one religion by a government entity smacks (to me) of a practice of religious establishment, even though it is in a negative direction. Just as some hypersensitive individuals see one faith projected above all others, plenty of that faith feel the opposite is going on, just as much. There are certainly many more people who should alter their own behavior and perceptions to effect a solution, possibly in the neighborhood of 300 million. But persecuting one group to alleviate another's persecution is not the solution this nation was founded to find or enforce.
It's a sticky situation as long as ad hominem attacks and universal victimhood are the weapons of choice. I personally find it instructive that chaplains are a longstanding component of military order, and predominantly Christian ones (due to supply and demand). Heck, they're part of HFB's, SAPR, DAPA, CACO, and many other official programs for individual and group mental health and welfare. It is officially recognized that there is value in including matters of the spirit in operations.
Sure, our free speech can be, and often is curtailed for the benefit of our ops and our position in government. But situations like this very strongly seem to be fear reactions to outspoken special interests, rather than well-considered policy decisions.
Now you're just being overly sensitive. It's called a spirited debate, not a "let's all pick on Jander" session. I certainly don't think that last comment was intended for you. This site is essentially a virtual ready room. If you think this is too intense, just wait until you're in your first real ready room.
So...should we censor people who are "picking on him?" It's virtual bullying!
How is that overly sensitive? I'm just making observations. I've been around long enough to take a hint. And I've definitely used my share of indirect insults.
I look forward to my first real ready room, thanks for the heads up.
I'm not offended. I'm not telling you guys to shut up or stop being mean to me. I was just bowing out of the 'spirited debate' and then gave my reasons why it seemed like I was being told to stfu. I'm not staying up at night complaining to my wife and kids about how mean people on the internet are. I don't have hard feelings either. Like I said at the beginning, the thread was started because I wanted to discuss how out of hand people being "offended" is getting (since everything offends someone) - so would it make sense for me to get offended about the reactions on this thread?! Others decided to turn it into a debate over separation of church and state. That wasn't the original intent.
Anyways, good talk.
A follow-up article (which I read past the headline): http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014...-god-word-vs-pentagon-word/?intcmp=latestnews
"The whiteboards are for both official and personal use...
Johnson said the Christian cadet “voluntarily elected to erase the scripture.”
Anybody else have trouble believing that?
...The Christian cleansing of the Bible verse led to a small uprising among cadets. At least a dozen posted Bible verses on their personal white boards and some even went so far as to post passages from the Koran. Those verses were not removed, presumably because the cadets were not in leadership positions...
“This academy should be training warriors who can deal with difficult situations and determined enemies,” Boykin said. “A scripture is hardly a threat.”
...one of the cadets told me. “It’s even too risky to go out into the hallway and talk to a Christian friend about your faith. It’s because there are people here who are so easily offended. If someone overheard us talking about Christianity, they could file a complaint. They could say we were having that discussion in a public space.”
...Weinstein is vowing to take the Air Force Academy to court unless they punish every cadet who posted a Bible verse on their bulletin boards...
...Weinstein likened the posting of the Bible verses to racism...
"
"The whiteboards are for both official and personal use...
Johnson said the Christian cadet “voluntarily elected to erase the scripture.”
Anybody else have trouble believing that?
...The Christian cleansing of the Bible verse led to a small uprising among cadets. At least a dozen posted Bible verses on their personal white boards and some even went so far as to post passages from the Koran. Those verses were not removed, presumably because the cadets were not in leadership positions...
“This academy should be training warriors who can deal with difficult situations and determined enemies,” Boykin said. “A scripture is hardly a threat.”
...one of the cadets told me. “It’s even too risky to go out into the hallway and talk to a Christian friend about your faith. It’s because there are people here who are so easily offended. If someone overheard us talking about Christianity, they could file a complaint. They could say we were having that discussion in a public space.”
...Weinstein is vowing to take the Air Force Academy to court unless they punish every cadet who posted a Bible verse on their bulletin boards...
...Weinstein likened the posting of the Bible verses to racism...
"
Well, what you've just described is classic Airwarriors.