Should I stay or should I go? Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying And Love HSC.

[SynixMan]

I'm guessing you know UNCLOS allows helicopters to fly during strait transits because they're considered the "normal operating mode" of the ship or some such language. Land-based assets don't have the freedom of curly-cueing around for hours, and how often is an LHx helping the DDG escort M/Vs through straits?

Romeos have to do because we're there and considered part of the ship.

I've seen it at the squadron and Task Force/Fleet level of planning. Having now seen the sausage being made at NAVCENT and the TFs, they've gotten it down to a fairly robust set of expectations from all the local players available. I was actually impressed at the level of coordination when we pushed some MCMs out of the Gulf to show the flag.

 

[IKE]

My second deployment to 5th fleet would beg to differ, or maybe I'm not understanding you.

In the strait? Down low and close enough to the ship to provide fires (in the strait)?

 

[scoolbubba]

In the strait? Down low and close enough to the ship to provide fires (in the strait)?

Yes to the first. Lots of laps for all kinds of boaty Mcboatfaces coming into and out of the gulf.

The second, as always, depends on how useful a couple IR mavs per bird were and how proficient the crews would have been employing them against the threats in the strait, or if they would have even been allowed to shoot in that environment. I just assumed we were there with the RCS of a barn to soak up Hawks that otherwise would be plinking helos down low.

 

[IKE]

Yes to the first. Lots of laps for all kinds of boaty Mcboatfaces coming into and out of the gulf.

The second, as always, depends on how useful a couple IR mavs per bird were and how proficient the crews would have been employing them against the threats in the strait, or if they would have even been allowed to shoot in that environment. I just assumed we were there with the RCS of a barn to soak up Hawks that otherwise would be plinking helos down low.

Cool. That was not my experience 3 years ago, and my understanding was support had to be organic air (by law, although the U.S. never actually signed that one, right?). The MPRA bubbas could only do transits - they could come and go as often as they pleased, but couldn't loiter along the way.

 

[scoolbubba]

The MPRA bubbas could only do transits - they could come and go as often as they pleased, but couldn't loiter along the way.

Ok, now I got it. That is correct; we were only able to go end to end. There was some trickery with writing lines to have more than a single plane overhead, but you're right.

I assumed if anything sideways went down, black line straits navigation was the least of anyone's concerns.

 

[azguy]

60S has a superior SUW punch? Am we just talking about the M197 or is there something else I'm missing?

It's really not my lane - I've always understood the Sierra to have much better payload re: A/S weapons. Based on the last page of results, sounds like I'm right, but not to the extent I thought...

Also, I'll raise the LOG issue again. That's why I always wished I had a Sierras onboard when I was independently deployed. 1-2 pax per flight was a big bummer that just doesn't exist when we were around the CVN and had HSC support. This was in C7F where (pre-COVID) you just move around more (geographically) and don't have a Desert Duck (if that's even still a thing).

 

[IKE]

It's really not my lane - I've always understood the Sierra to have much better payload re: A/S weapons. Based on the last page of results, sounds like I'm right, but not to the extent I thought...

Also, I'll raise the LOG issue again. That's why I always wished I had a Sierras onboard when I was independently deployed. 1-2 pax per flight was a big bummer that just doesn't exist when we were around the CVN and had HSC support. This was in C7F where (pre-COVID) you just move around more (geographically) and don't have a Desert Duck (if that's even still a thing).

To keep the threadjack going... Phase maintenance brings, I think, a heavy cost to any good ideas of a mixed det (HSC bubbas with MQ-8 experience, please chime in). Do you really want one R and one S if there will be a 2-3-week period where you only have the S (no ASW, no SURPIC, etc.)

 

[Pags]

It's really not my lane - I've always understood the Sierra to have much better payload re: A/S weapons. Based on the last page of results, sounds like I'm right, but not to the extent I thought...

Also, I'll raise the LOG issue again. That's why I always wished I had a Sierras onboard when I was independently deployed. 1-2 pax per flight was a big bummer that just doesn't exist when we were around the CVN and had HSC support. This was in C7F where (pre-COVID) you just move around more (geographically) and don't have a Desert Duck (if that's even still a thing).

I agree with @IKE. While the 60S does have a few more guns then the 60R they're CSW so take that for what it's worth. As an independent steamer you're probably not going to get an M197 as those are for the CVW squadrons unless you're doing something very unique. But, to get those few extra guns, you're giving up A LOT of capabilities that the 60R has such as radar, ESM, link input, and ASW and torps.

And yes, while the 60S is a better LOG bird I'd say that while having that LOG bird as an independent steamer makes day to day life easier it won't help you as much when it comes time to do the real work of a DDG* and won't help you at all if your tasking is ASW. So, if your 60R is down and you need to do ASW you're now having the conversation with the Air Boss as to whether you can CASREP the aircraft (which is a stupid conversation).

Bottom line: if you could only pick one helo, pick the 60R.

*You are a DDG, right? If we're talking LCS you'll get a 60S and like it.

 

[Gatordev]

So, if your 60R is down and you need to do ASW you're now having the conversation with the Air Boss as to whether you can CASREP the aircraft (which is a stupid conversation).

@Pags this is an honest question and not trying to be snarky... Is using the term "CASPREP" as it pertains to the aircraft a HSC thing or is your inner boat roach coming out? I've never heard it used that way for aircraft before, other than by Shoes. Going NMCS is essentially the same thing, except as a FAD of 1 or 3, the expediter is going to get it to you as fast as possible without having to deal with all the Shoe CASREP classes and people trying to hide parts (which admittedly does still happen from time to time). By being NMCS, there's no conversation. The Det Mx has already made it happen, assuming the part isn't in the PUK.

Not that that changes your overall point, which we're obviously on the same page. I was just curious as to your wording.

 

[Jim123]

Single aircraft dets used to do phases in port. That's not as bad as it sounds- if it was your duty day then you're on the boat anyway (3 section duty) so the work got done during a 4 day liberty port. The dets did other things to manage the work, like starting a day or two early before pulling in, ground turns and FCF right after pulling out. That also gave the shoes a chance to reconnect the land/launch radio (you mean we need that circuit??), which they invariably disconnected in every port... amazing...

 

[Pags]

@Pags this is an honest question and not trying to be snarky... Is using the term "CASPREP" as it pertains to the aircraft a HSC thing or is your inner boat roach coming out? I've never heard it used that way for aircraft before, other than by Shoes. Going NMCS is essentially the same thing, except as a FAD of 1 or 3, the expediter is going to get it to you as fast as possible without having to deal with all the Shoe CASREP classes and people trying to hide parts (which admittedly does still happen from time to time). By being NMCS, there's no conversation. The Det Mx has already made it happen, assuming the part isn't in the PUK.

Not that that changes your overall point, which we're obviously on the same page. I was just curious as to your wording.

I'm poking fun at the SWOs. A good friend of mine (Slinky) has told me stories of when he was an HSL Det OIC that his Ship CO always wanted to CASREP the aircraft if it was down and then had to be talked off that ledge with the type of details your provided.

 

[AllYourBass]

I agree with @IKE. While the 60S does have a few more guns then the 60R they're CSW so take that for what it's worth. As an independent steamer you're probably not going to get an M197 as those are for the CVW squadrons unless you're doing something very unique. But, to get those few extra guns, you're giving up A LOT of capabilities that the 60R has such as radar, ESM, link input, and ASW and torps.

And yes, while the 60S is a better LOG bird I'd say that while having that LOG bird as an independent steamer makes day to day life easier it won't help you as much when it comes time to do the real work of a DDG* and won't help you at all if your tasking is ASW. So, if your 60R is down and you need to do ASW you're now having the conversation with the Air Boss as to whether you can CASREP the aircraft (which is a stupid conversation).

Bottom line: if you could only pick one helo, pick the 60R.

*You are a DDG, right? If we're talking LCS you'll get a 60S and like it.

Same story for MH-60Rs and APKWS. Nobody on the small boys is even qualified to handle that ordnance.

 

[Pags]

Same story for MH-60Rs and APKWS. Nobody on the small boys is even qualified to handle that ordnance.

Yeah, wasn't sure how wide spread the ordnance certs and quals are for APKWS.

 

[Gatordev]

I'm poking fun at the SWOs. A good friend of mine (Slinky) has told me stories of when he was an HSL Det OIC that his Ship CO always wanted to CASREP the aircraft if it was down and then had to be talked off that ledge with the type of details your provided.

Gotcha. I was reading fast and wasn't sure if the "CASREP is stupid" comment was how you actually meant it.

Obviously a DDG is a different animal, but it was amusing to brief the aircraft status and have the SUPPO brief the supply status when on a FFG. It was a huge deal when something from the ship was CASREP'ed and it's parts cost was 1 million dollars!!!! We would say, "that's like one component on one of our two helos. What's the big deal?"

Same story for MH-60Rs and APKWS. Nobody on the small boys is even qualified to handle that ordnance.

My understanding was NWP42.3-04.-122 still didn't authorize the use of rockets on a small boy, so there was never a qual to do it. Is that still a thing?

 

[HAL Pilot]

Is it going forward or backward at 100 Kts???