Sequestration and you...

[phrogpilot73]

At the end of 8 years, or 20 years, any business would take you right now, because they think you have "experience."

Not exactly. The unemployment rate among post 9/11 veterans is higher than the national average. Of course, there's lots that make that number up (area, degree, etc...) but I can say that a buddy of mine just stopped looking for a job after getting out 2 years ago and is now a full time MBA student.

 

[P3 F0]

My totally uninformed, biased assumption would have also been the "grass is always greener" take on outside vs. inside. Interesting to hear otherwise--it would actually make a good thread all on its own to solicit more input. And the relative compensation piece is totally dependent upon the situation. I'm looking at getting out soon, and will probably take a nice pay cut.

 

[Flash]

Uhh, yeah they do. The grass isn't all that greener on the corporate side of the fence it just seems that way.

There is some BS shit.. But FAR less than the Navy........

.....As Master pointed out, bureaucratic nonsense takes away from the bottom dollar......And part of it is the bureaucratic BS that doesn't exist out here to the level it does in the military.

The civilian world can be a lot better or a lot worse than the military, it is not like every civilian job or company is the same. I have had plenty of family and friends work in private industry and their experience has been all over the place, from the really bad (having to account for every 15 minutes of work and having to deal with meth-heads as customers at a 'leadership-track' position at a major multi-national manufacturer?!) to great. Every place has its goods and bass.

Some of the training and admin crap can be a bit bothersome at times but I haven't found it to be much more than a minor annoyance. I think someone who hasn't been in the military and comes on this site would think we spend 50-90% of our time on sexual harassment training, travel claims and filling out TPS reports when it is just a very small amount of what we spend our time on. I am guessing the only reason it takes a lot of folks so long to get through on-line training is that they spend 80% of the time bitching about it while doing it. Even where I am now alone and unafraid with no admin support whatsoever I spend just minutes per week on admin and training bullshit.

 

[phrogpilot73]

I think someone who hasn't been in the military and comes on this site would think we spend 50-90% of our time on sexual harassment training, travel claims and filling out TPS reports when it is just a very small amount of what we spend our time on. I am guessing the only reason it takes a lot of folks so long to get through on-line training is that they spend 80% of the time bitching about it while doing it. Even where I am now alone and unafraid with no admin support whatsoever I spend just minutes per week on admin and training bullshit.

I don't know what your current reserve gig is, but here's a snippet of what we've done for recent drill weekends:

Nov, 2012 - Birthday Ball/Ball Recovery Sat/Sun
Dec, 2012 - 1 flight in morning on Sat, Christmas party Sat afternoon. Sun, 1 flight in the morning.
Jan, 2013 - BITS/Safety Standdown on Sat, 1 flight in the morning on Sun.
Feb, Mar, Apr - TBD
May 2013 - Change of Command/Post and Relief/Retirement Ceremony. Yes. The whole weekend.

So far, we haven't even come close to the campaign plan's goals (for flight hours OR training X's) that was signed by the CO. At this point in our lives - just looking at drill weekends, yes - we probably spend close to 50% of our time NOT training/doing the mission. Most of us are coming in on AFTPs (and because of that - we're burning through the balance alloted by group quick, fast, and in a hurry) to get even close to our mins.

In previous years, if we wanted a Christmas party - it was a 2 turn 2, then Christmas party in the late afternoon.

We're also a lot less than 70% MC because guess what? Our priorities are all the other crap it seems. Oh, and the online training? Everyone of us does it at home and gets an RMP for it.

The outgoing CO approached the incoming CO about having the change of command 2 months early. I wonder if he's trying to minimize flying in order to minimize the chance of something big that could happen and lead to him leaving without a band.

 

[Gatordev]

I don't know what your current reserve gig is, but here's a snippet of what we've done for recent drill weekends:

Nov, 2012 - Birthday Ball/Ball Recovery Sat/Sun
Dec, 2012 - 1 flight in morning on Sat, Christmas party Sat afternoon. Sun, 1 flight in the morning.
Jan, 2013 - BITS/Safety Standdown on Sat, 1 flight in the morning on Sun.
Feb, Mar, Apr - TBD
May 2013 - Change of Command/Post and Relief/Retirement Ceremony. Yes. The whole weekend.

So far, we haven't even come close to the campaign plan's goals (for flight hours OR training X's) that was signed by the CO. At this point in our lives - just looking at drill weekends, yes - we probably spend close to 50% of our time NOT training/doing the mission. Most of us are coming in on AFTPs (and because of that - we're burning through the balance alloted by group quick, fast, and in a hurry) to get even close to our mins.

In previous years, if we wanted a Christmas party - it was a 2 turn 2, then Christmas party in the late afternoon.

We're also a lot less than 70% MC because guess what? Our priorities are all the other crap it seems. Oh, and the online training? Everyone of us does it at home and gets an RMP for it.

The outgoing CO approached the incoming CO about having the change of command 2 months early. I wonder if he's trying to minimize flying in order to minimize the chance of something big that could happen and lead to him leaving without a band.

That's all pretty Reserve-centric, though, and pretty common across the force. The majority of the time during drills is spent on admin because there's only 12 opportunities to get it done with a captive audience. Between GMT, PHAs, random other paperwork issues that have to be redone 3 times because someone has lost them in routing, the Strategic Reserve does very little actual work. As you know, the Operational Reserve makes stuff happen on the non-drill days.

I think Flash's point is that for the conventional Navy that works "7" days a week, the admin is a smaller portion of the week's activities. I can understand the point, but in the last 2-3 years, it does seem like the various admin BS demands (training, training briefs, training software, etc) has increased noticably (and not just anecdotally).

 

[Flash]

I don't know what your current reserve gig is, but here's a snippet of what we've done for recent drill weekends......

I am in an active duty billet now so my weekends aren't filled with admin BS right now. It is true that many of my weekends when doing the regular reserve gig are taken up with admin crap but that is part and parcel for the reserves, we have to take care of our own stuff and that is when we can. But that is the reserves and a whole different animal, I was talking more about active duty folks since that is most of the folks here and a source of the vast majority of the complaints.

Birthday Ball/Ball Recovery Sat/Sun....Christmas party .....Change of Command/Post and Relief/Retirement Ceremony. Yes. The whole weekend......At this point in our lives - just looking at drill weekends, yes - we probably spend close to 50% of our time NOT training/doing the mission......

Sounds like a lot of self-inflicted pain on your squadron's part, I hardly had to do a lot of that stuff even in my active duty squadrons and none in my reserve units (I haven't been a hardware unit though).

 

[phrogpilot73]

Sounds like a lot of self-inflicted pain on your squadron's part, I hardly had to do a lot of that stuff even in my active duty squadrons and none in my reserve units (I haven't been a hardware unit though).

Yeah, it hasn't always been like this. For the last 6-8 months, it seems like we've turned into a party squadron that occasionally flies. Both the AD CO and the Reserve CO are out the door this year, so I legitimately think that they're just trying to keep their heads down until it's over.

For 3 of the 4 years I've been here, most of the admin BS was done NOT at the squadron (we did it on our own time or via RMP), or it was shoe-horned in around the flight schedule. But now it is in the forefront, and appears that's our new mission.

That's all pretty Reserve-centric, though, and pretty common across the force. The majority of the time during drills is spent on admin because there's only 12 opportunities to get it done with a captive audience. Between GMT, PHAs, random other paperwork issues that have to be redone 3 times because someone has lost them in routing, the Strategic Reserve does very little actual work. As you know, the Operational Reserve makes stuff happen on the non-drill days.

I think Flash's point is that for the conventional Navy that works "7" days a week, the admin is a smaller portion of the week's activities. I can understand the point, but in the last 2-3 years, it does seem like the various admin BS demands (training, training briefs, training software, etc) has increased noticably (and not just anecdotally).

Yeah, I know - but it's gotten worse over the last 6-8 months. Significantly. Noticeably. It used to be cough up 3 drill weekends (2 drill weekends, and half of 2 others) to knock out all the admin crap, tidy up the rest at AT. Now it seems like the admin crap is the primary focus of effort EVERY drill weekend.

I'll agree it's not as bad on the AD side, but even then - I look at all the new "metrics" that need to be provided (yesterday), then hear about a new gee-whiz class, etc... I guess it's gotta get worse before it gets better.

 

[HAL Pilot]

....At the end of 8 years, or 20 years, any business would take you right now....

That's a myth the recruiters tell you. I know plenty of former military officer that got pasted by for jobs in favor of civilians with no military experience. I'm not just talking aviation either.

 

[jtdees]

Well, for me, that's what business people were telling me, directly or not. It wasn't a selling point used by any recruiter, it was just the way the wind was blowing when I signed up.

I did have a good job all lined up, already worked for the company and was in position to move up big time, fully qualified and would have worked for a lot less than some older folks, but they pulled in somebody with "10 years' experience" from another state, even though it was advertised as an "internal hire only."And this was in Houston, not exactly the weakest job market during the recession.

That's when I decided to just pursue the Navy. It was the end of a couple of years of similar struggles after college, and I've now found what I was looking for. In 8 years, or 18 years, I'm sure things will look different, because I'm sure the returns on my time will look a lot smaller than they do now. Maybe I just have a difficult personality or unrealistic standards for myself, but that's the way I've seen it lately, and that's all I was trying to suggest above.

 

[helolumpy]

HAL, my military buds were snapped up in a heartbeat when they got out...

Kow, if they're your buds, then they probably got snapped up in a heartbeat by the police due to outstanding warrants...

 

[phrogdriver]

Like anything else, it depends. Do vets have a leg up in many places? Yes. Do they get to just waltz off active duty and fall into a job? No.

 

[MasterBates]

I had no problem getting employment.

But I had no problem with job offers pre-Navy.

Former JO doesn't mean you get companies fighting over you for 100k plus.. While companies say they like the "leadership" I've found they like me more for my technical skills, which a lot of guys on the "Poli Sci and Fly" plan don't have, at least not a piece of paper anyways.

 

[HAL Pilot]

HAL, my military buds were snapped up in a heartbeat when they got out...

I seem to remember someone not being able to get an airline gig and wanting to go to Scenic to fly the Grand Canyon and build multi fixed-wing time before the Coast Guard came through....

You may be flying with some of those delinquents if you use commercial airline service, pal... just remember that!

You can't compare airline hiring to corporate hiring.

Like anything else, it depends. Do vets have a leg up in many places? Yes. Do they get to just waltz off active duty and fall into a job? No.

What he said.

....and would have worked for a lot less than some older folks, but they pulled in somebody with "10 years' experience" from another state, even though it was advertised as an "internal hire only"...

So what you are saying is that it was okay for you to stab an older guy in the back by trying to steal his job by offering to do it for less money but then the company stabbed you in the back by hiring a more experienced worker who would therefore probably be more productive. Karma, she's a bitch....

 

[bert]

With prior thought and effort, you can come out at 8 or 20 years with a leg up on your military peers (whatever your field) but unless you are an acquisition guy going to a defense contractor or a a pilot with the right kind of mins going into flying you will be behind your civilian peers (there are probably some other examples as well).

And to HAL's point about younger guys willing to do the same job for less - that is a lot of the reason why O-4s/O-5s/O-6s get a pay cut on their first experience with the real world (along with the fact that a lot of middle/upper-middle management layers are gone these days). The airline union has protected their pilots against that as much as they can, but the price you pay is you have to put in your time to get to be one of those well-paid old farts. For guys like me and MB doing technical and management work, for instance, the good news is we get rewarded right away once we demonstrate what we can do, and the bad news is that if our companies could get the same results for half the salary they wouldn't hesitate for a moment. Yet another reason why you have to understand the career path in the fields you are considering going into so you can make a choice that works for you.

My experience has been that once you prove yourself in the civilian world they have no problem paying you top dollar, but you have to prove you have the skills they need first - they aren't just going to rain cash on you on faith.

 

[Renegade One]

Uhh, yeah they do. The grass isn't all that greener on the corporate side of the fence it just seems that way.

Shack.