Sending newly winged aviators to reserve squadrons...

[zab1001]

nittany: yes. The idea behind MMA is do more with less. I haven't heard any rumors on squadron numbers, but I wouldn't be suprised if they put 2 squadrons at each site and rotated crews out in dets, a la VQ style. The drawdown in pilots now serves to solve the number issues currently facing the community, both pilot and aircraft-wise.

As far as killing MMA, hey I'm as suspicious as the next guy. The Nav will have serious problems if it does this. Helos kick a$$ at ASW, but they need a ship, and they can't do the long range stuff fixed wing can. Part of the reason for selecting the 737 was Boeing's claim that it could get a Fleet-ready model up and running faster than Lockheed's proposed "new" P-3.

(I can't figure out how to insert a quote this far down)
Wink, you said: "FNG/non PPC or not, you will fly, and more than once a month, and you will deploy as a newby pilot in a reserve squadron."

Do VR squadrons deploy? I'm not being a smart@ss, I just thought those guys did dets, some overseas, and that was the extent of their non conus ops. I've seen C-9s and C-20s on the ramp overseas, but I figured they were moving people/VIPs and returned stateside after the trip was done.

 

[zab1001]

(since i can't edit my own post for some reason, one more thought)

as far as that numbers issue goes, I have no idea what the plan is for 737 MMA crew make up. You don't NEED a 3P, or 3rd pilot to fly the P-3 (sometimes you wanna toss him out the main cabin door), just like you don't NEED a 3rd pilot on the MMA. The position serves to both alleviate fatigue (whats the rule, over 6 hours requires 3 pilots I think...) by rotating pilots and to allow a FNG to watch, learn, and experience how real-life VP ops work, while maintaing two senior, experienced pilots, one to always have in the seat with the new guy, at all times.

 

[wink]

The VR guys don't deploy as a squadron, but have deployed as dets during Desert Storm and OIF/OEF. In any case, I was thinking primarily of the reserve VP guys. They have deployed as dets as well, although not likely for 6 months straight. Got to remember, as an active duty guy in a reserve squadron, you will take all the missions they can't fill with selres types quick enough or easily enough. Sometimes which pot the money comes from makes a difference too. The TAR/FTS (fulltime support) guys are on active duty already and getting paid no matter what. You have to find the right kind of money to bring a selres on active duty and pay him. Just as easy to send the active duty FNG.

 

[wink]

zab,
It's ok. Must be the new culture.

 

[Jaxs170]

This has to be a joke right, sending the bottom of the barrell folks from the P-3 pipeline to the best flying jobs the Navy has in the reserves? We are so overstocked with pilots in TACAMO they are sending out some crews with 5, yes 5, pilots for a deployment (lucky crews only have 4, the days of having only 3 pilots are over for a while). Our new guys would benefit greatly if they would be able to fly a C-9 or 40 for a year before coming to TACAMO, yet I have heard nothing of this deal to send newly winged studs to reserve squadrons.

Why can't the P-3 community adapt like we have and just put 4 pilots per crew? Also, they changed all the standards for AC here so they are no longer hours based, why can't P-3s do the same? This really seems like a huge screw job to most aviators if some folks are getting 2 year sweet deals to the perfect platform to get an airline job and not having to do the work like the rest of us.

 

[wink]

We excuse the heck out of me, but I could care less about what any of you think is the best deal for an airline job. If heavy flying is all you wanted to prepare for an airline job then why didn't you slackers just go to the chair force? I can tell you from experience, it doesn't really matter what you fly in the military. It is a myth that the airlines look for C-9 and C-141 guys over anything else. So, go tactical, use your brain, take some risks with your life, and have fun while you are young. If you get out and want to fly straight and level for the next 30 years well thats fine, but atleast you would have really learned to employ an aircraft in a manner that challenges you every mission. Don't ever snivel about what Navy flying best prepares you for an airline job or reduce the flying the Navy would have you do as nothing more than training for an airline career around me.

 

[Jaxs170]

We excuse the heck out of me, but I could care less about what any of you think is the best deal for an airline job. If heavy flying is all you wanted to prepare for an airline job then why didn't you slackers just go to the chair force? I can tell you from experience, it doesn't really matter what you fly in the military. It is a myth that the airlines look for C-9 and C-141 guys over anything else. So, go tactical, use your brain, take some risks with your life, and have fun while you are young. If you get out and want to fly straight and level for the next 30 years well thats fine, but atleast you would have really learned to employ an aircraft in a manner that challenges you every mission. Don't ever snivel about what Navy flying best prepares you for an airline job or reduce the flying the Navy would have you do as nothing more than training for an airline career around me.

My beef with this idea has nothing to do with what community would best prepare someone for the airlines and has everything to do with rewarding sub-par performance. As I understand this idea, the lowest 25% of the P-3 grads would be allowed to have their committments reduced by 6 years and be given seats in Navy planes that most guys spend a minimum of 6 years (and in many instances many more years than that) fighting/flying out in the fleet to earn. Talk to VR or reserve VP guys and see if you find one who doesn't think its about the best job out there. To have a slacker who couldn't cut it in 44s get handed a seat in one their jets just does not seem right to me, nor does it seem fair to those who did what was asked of them during flight training. If they want to send guys to VR squadrons, fine, but open it up to everyone and have the selections start with the #1 guy and work down like it does with every other facet of flight training.

 

[zab1001]

First of all, for a plan this extreme to take effect, it means that the Maritime community is in dire staits when it comes to over-manning. Looks like the powers that be decided that this is a priority and took action.

"Bottom of the barrell"- What exactly do you mean here? No one has siad that they are taking the guys with the lowest scores and sending them to VR jobs. Or are you implying that all the guys in Maritime advanced are rated as such? Might want to clarify before you burn any bridges.

"Best flying job in the reserves"? Lets see, it's going to take at least 4-6 months to get these guys qualified as co-pilots. Maybe in the next 1.5 yrs they'll qualify as AC, but do you really think LCDR Joe Reservist is gonna let LTJG Nugget sign for a plane over him? Get real. These guys will probably not get any A time until they continue in their commands, after their initial 2 yrs, as TAR/FTS or SELRES.

"some folks are getting 2 year sweet deals to the perfect platform to get an airline job"- Tell ya what, find me a major airline that will hire a guy with 2 yrs worth of co-pilot time. Not bloody likely. Hell, I'll be looking for a job in about 2 yrs, maybe they'll take me on as well.

"Why can't the P-3 community adapt like we have and just put 4 pilots per crew? Also, they changed all the standards for AC here so they are no longer hours based, why can't P-3s do the same?"

Why? Instead of compromising, the powers that be in VP recognized a serious problem and found a solution. CNET and VR agreed. Who knows, maybe VQ will follow suit.

"This really seems like a huge screw job to most aviators if some folks are getting 2 year sweet deals to the perfect platform to get an airline job and not having to do the work like the rest of us."

Read it however you like, seems to me like 40 guys who thought they were going to P-3s got the rug pulled out from under them and stuck with a "not so sweet" deal. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

 

[bigmouth]

Zab is absolutely right. No one mentioned anything to anyone about the bottom 25% being chosen. And I also resent the implication that the bottom 25% are slackers. I worked my ass off in T-44's, as did everyone else I know, and no matter where we finished in relation to one another, we still had to get through the program. Personally, however, I think it is a good deal, especially for people who want guaranteed flight time. You won't be given any PIC time, and no major airline will want you, but a commuter might, so who knows what the future may hold.
But I also agree with Zab on another very important point. Many of us have wanted to fly P-3's for years, and now it seems that if the Navy doesn't get their 40 volunteers, then some people are going to be very unhappy, and rightly so. How they'll choose them, I have no idea, but it will undoubtedly be unpopular no matter what the manner.

 

[VarmintShooter]

Jaxs,
you can have my spot if they stick it to me - I don't want it. Most of the guys I talk to don't want it (haven't found any yet who volunteered). We all want to complete our training as P-3 guys and go out to do our job.

Gotta say that you seem to be trashing on us for no good reason and it kinda ticks me off. Maybe I'm just reading your posts wrong. Do you wish you could have your committment shortened? Sounds to me like your basis for being unhappy is that you'd like this deal offered to you, rather than us.

Oh, and I've got a lot more than 6 years on the team, and am sure as hell not looking to reduce my committment.

 

[Jaxs170]

OK, looking back on the posts, Zab said "They could easily take the 40 guys with the lowest NSS's and say "see ya". Instead they're offering a shot at wings and a squadron." I added the lowest 25% part out of nowhere for some reason, but now I hope you see where I was coming from when I said what I said.

Bigmouth, yes, many of us did want to fly P-3s, and many of us are flying elsewhere b/c we couldn't get P-3s. Many of us who wanted to fly P-3s are in TACAMO fighting for flight time in squadrons with too many pilots, too many O-4s, not enough jets, and not enough flight time to go around. Yet, we have adapted to the situation to deal with all of the above in a manner which, while not perfect, ensures everyone gets a fair deal in our community with the flight time we have available.

So again I ask, why can't P-3s carry 4 pilots at a time? I also ask, why aren't studs at Vance being considered for this VR option since we also have too many pilots?

As far as the bottom 25%, I will now say I was wrong on that, its more like the bottom 10%. It could just be a difference in what we went through. I can tell ya, the bottom guys I saw/flew with scared me, they didn't try and half the time didn't seem to care. They were dangerous (at times) and I really wish 2 of them had been washed out rather than winged.

Varmitt, I am glad to hear that you know no one who wants out. If you are reading that I want my committment reduced you are reading my posts wrong, I have about the most incredible job at 25 year old could have, and I love my job (living in OK, well, that I love not so much but there are far worse places).

My issue here is fairness. If P-3 guys are really hurting that much for flight time, why can't they adapt and overcome with the people they currently have. TACAMO is hurting for flight time also, we still have too many pilots here, too many on the way, and there has not been one mention of anything like this being an option for us, and we are trained to fly jets like the VRs have. A TACAMO guy right out of Vance would gain valuable experience flying a C-9 or a 737 for a year or 2 before coming to TACAMO, assuming they could fly more hours in that time than they would have if they were flying the E-6. Would I have accpeted a deal where I did 2 years of VR then 6 selres out of Vance, 99% chance I would have said no. Two years VR then 6 years TACAMO, now that I may have done.

Are P-3s really hurting that bad for flight time? Could someone fill me in as to what the current situation in VP is, I am getting the feeling we would find that VP and VQ are facing similar problems. As far as sending nugets to the VRs, all I ask is that there is fairness in sending people, VP isin't the only community with flight time/over manning issues.

 

[virtu050]

I think it's fair because they're taking volunteers. If the #1 person in a class wanted this he or she could take advantage of it. and I have seen a couple people sign up for it already. From what I understand it's being offered to primary studs and helos as well.

 

[wink]

I think maybe most of us are on the same page. Getting these orders is not a good deal unless you simply want to get out of the Navy ASAP. And I can tell you from experience, that someone completing these two year active duty orders will not get hired by anyone but a commuter type operation. So you have to want out bad to take these orders. If I misunderstood JAX then I'm sorry, but it sounded to me like he considered this program a good deal, whether it goes to bottom feeders or not, because you can get out of the Navy so soon. He says that isn't so and I accept that. If there is a manning problem in P-3s then this might be a good deal. If they are taking guys after Advanced, won't this help the VAQ problem as well, or do I not know my pipeline so well anymore? Something no one has considered here is that maybe the VR community is short of junior folks. Remember now, all you pilot types get off active duty as mid career officers. Maybe they need some real worker bees. Rather then send a bunch of guys packing this can help solve two problems without screwing some nuggets too bad.

 

[bch]

I think it's fair because they're taking volunteers. If the #1 person in a class wanted this he or she could take advantage of it. and I have seen a couple people sign up for it already. From what I understand it's being offered to primary studs and helos as well.

No news of it in South Park.

 

[zab1001]

OK, looking back on the posts, Zab said "They could easily take the 40 guys with the lowest NSS's and say "see ya". Instead they're offering a shot at wings and a squadron." I added the lowest 25% part out of nowhere for some reason, but now I hope you see where I was coming from when I said what I said.

Right. By "see ya" I meant IRAD.

Bigmouth, yes, many of us did want to fly P-3s, and many of us are flying elsewhere b/c we couldn't get P-3s. Many of us who wanted to fly P-3s are in TACAMO fighting for flight time in squadrons with too many pilots, too many O-4s, not enough jets, and not enough flight time to go around. Yet, we have adapted to the situation to deal with all of the above in a manner which, while not perfect, ensures everyone gets a fair deal in our community with the flight time we have available.

As far as too many pilots, too many O-4s, not enough aircraft, yep, sounds familiar, cry me a river.

So again I ask, why can't P-3s carry 4 pilots at a time? I also ask, why aren't studs at Vance being considered for this VR option since we also have too many pilots?

Again, the VP leadership, in conjunction with CNET, VR, and whoever else approves this stuff, found a better solution. If you feel so strongly about it, call the detailer or congressman and ask why TACAMO students aren't being offered it.

My issue here is fairness.

Are P-3s really hurting that bad for flight time? Could someone fill me in as to what the current situation in VP is, I am getting the feeling we would find that VP and VQ are facing similar problems. As far as sending nugets to the VRs, all I ask is that there is fairness in sending people, VP isin't the only community with flight time/over manning issues.

There's a lot of talk about being "fair".

Is it fair to send single guys on dets or keep them on deployment longer than married guys?
No.

Is it fair to call land based fixed wing aircraft first tours "sea tours"? No (and I AM one of those guys).

Is it fair to hose a guy who works his a$$ off for the squadron with a hard fill job somewhere he doesn't want to be doing something he doesn't like to do because it "helps the community"?
No.

Is any of this stuff going to change? No.

There's never been, nor will there be a "fairness" clause in the military. The decision has been made. Maybe it will open up to other communities, maybe it won't. Get over it. Keep flying.