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RFI -Army WOFT from Navy Enlisted?

Kaman

Beech 1900 pilot's; "Fly it like you stole it"
I have two former AW Navy buddies that both went from Navy AD to Army Warrant officer pilot training. When they did, it had to be at the end of a current enlistment and you were discharged at the convenience of the government for further enlistment kinda deals. This was early 90s' so things have likely changed. One of them had a pretty good career after starting in a "dust-off" unit he went to Japan and was based at Camp Zama flying VIP H-60s and then spent the remainder of his career with the 160th SOAR.
 

Sapper!

Excuse the BS...
I can't say for AD guys. Guard guys are deploying for a 1 year total deployment, which includes about 2 months of mobilization training. That leaves about 9 months actually at your deployment site, with a few weeks tacked on to each end at intermediate sites. We are getting 2.5 to 3.0 years between deployments. I think the AD deployments are a year, but mobilization is not included in the year (they are already mobilized). They spend more time in country and are probably closer to 1.5 to 2.0 years between. It is different for each unit, but that is what the AD guys in my MTP course told me.


Yeah that is pretty close for Army. AD guys I know are doing 14 months on and a little less than 12 off but that changes between units and readiness. KW guy I know did over 14 months in OIF with the 2-17 came back for 12 months and did 13 in OEF, came home for 11 and went back to OEF for 14. Just as bad, each time they returned it was with less birds as they keep leaving a large portion of what they take with them in country after they are done.

Speaking of, you may know the answer, but isn't something like a BDE's worth of helos we have lost so far without a plan to replace them yet? Maybe that was just the scout people's aggravation at their replacement airframe getting canceled?
 

Coota0

Registered User
None
It's a scout issue; although I'm sure the other airframes are felling it too. The Army failed to field the ARH, because of that Bell thought we'd be replacing -58s with ARHs and closed the line, now both the Army and Bell are trying to figure out a way to make new Kiowas, we've got everything but airframes.
 

Sapper!

Excuse the BS...
It's a scout issue; although I'm sure the other airframes are felling it too. The Army failed to field the ARH, because of that Bell thought we'd be replacing -58s with ARHs and closed the line, now both the Army and Bell are trying to figure out a way to make new Kiowas, we've got everything but airframes.

That definitely makes sense that it is a scout exclusive issue.

I did hear something about a plan to extend the service life to at least 2018 I believe and then possibly beyond? Which doesn't seem right because by the time they implement it might be 2018 already! Just kidding but I have to say the army got some gear fielded lighting fast in OIF and OEF, which was hurtful because of the problems in the field and the increased cost to fix in country, but still interesting. Wonder what they will come up with for the KWs.

Do you think that there is going to be an upgrade, like a MWO/kit/overhaul for the -58 or more like a self implemented program that gets passed down over time to the unit? Probably not a clear understanding of how things work on my part, but just curious.
 

Coota0

Registered User
None
We're getting a new model of Kiowa, the -58F which will have many of the upgrades pilots have been yelling for. Bell has a plan to do a further Block II upgrade that will include a new tail rotor, main rotor blade, transmission and engine, and some sort of improvement/upgrade to the cabin. Bell was wining and dining and bending the ears of anyone they could find in the Scout community at AAAA a couple of weeks ago trying to convince everyone that Bell could keep the -58s flying and could feild a replacement when needed too.
 

highside7r

Member
None
How is life in the Army for AD pilots? Are deploments getting better?

It's getting better, when I first switched over to the green side my medevac unit was doing 8 months between 1 year tours. We did the OIF surge and pushed our normal 12 months to 15. Right now we are looking at 12 on, 12 off for OEF. This last rotation was somewhat better, only 1 JRTC/NTC event, along with HAMET's in Colorado. I compare it to cruise and dets from my HS days, true you are CONUS, but never really home for a full month at times.
 

Stearmann4

I'm here for the Jeeehawd!
None
OttoWrote8;687743) Too often people make empty promises and end up forgetting and doing nothing. This is one I'd like to follow up on and really give him something useful said:
The absolute best thing you can do for your kid as his DIVO are:

1. Be his champion and represetative to the skipper when he submits his request to apply for the program, and subsequent release from the Navy pending acceptance to WOFT. He will have to have a written release approved by you, and signed by your C.O which then gets forwarded to DA (Dept of the Army).

2. Only 3 letters of recommendation really matter. One is from the interviewing warrant officer aviator. The other two letters of recommendation are required from his Navy chain of command; yours and the C.Os. They are the first discriminator the board reviews. If they are weak, vague, flowery, or do not contain quantitative accomplishments and tangible examples of leadership, initiative, etc. he's sunk right from the gates. There a predetermined amount of interservice applicants allotted for any given board. he is competeing with all the other Sailors, Airmen, and Marines for one of those slots, then the real screening begins. All things equal (rank, TIS, etc) an enlisted Soldier will most always win out over a comparable sister servoce applicant. he has to be substantially better.

Right now the AD Army is about 2,000 WO pilots over strength and it's extremely competitve. The last board I reviewed on average had degrees, prior flight time and were at least E-6s, or E-5s with exemplary combat records. It's tough for interservice applicants, so you need to impress upon him that he'll have one shot at selection.

Currently, I'm 7-0 for applicants that I've interviewed and received my letter of recommendation. Although it has some application to civilian candidates, I typed up a WOFT application guide line some time ago. I cut and pasted rather then send a link to another web site.

Perspective Army Aviators,
Out of shear curiosity during my deployment to Afghanistan, I started reading through the topics and questions regarding becoming a successful WOFT Applicant. I've screened and endorsed dozens of successful applicants and discouraged just as many. Here's a short list of successful attributes I and my fellow WOs looked for when interviewing.

The caveat is I speak only of active duty, and inter-service applicants. The Guard and Reserves do things a little different but no less thorough.

Getting Started: I get stopped and sharp-shot periodically, even in the chow hall with "What do I have to do to be a pilot?" The answer is much longer than can be explained in one sitting. I realize you have to start somewhere, but in the era of the internet, there's absolutely no piece of information you can't find on your own. As some others have stated, if you don't have the intiative to at least familiarize yourself with the prerequisites, I'm not going to spoon feed them to you. I have also had applicants show up for an interview asking more basic questions than I asked them. If you went for a corporate interview for a potential six-figure job, knowing nothing of what the company did, you'd be shown the door.

Recruiters: I know most recruiters are less than helpful for WOC applicants, as they get nothing out assisting you with your packet. That said, you can complete most of the process without their assistance. During the process you only need to work with them to take the ASVAB/AFAST,flight physical, and obtain the correct digital forms. Also, being proactive and persistant is in your best interest. Do not expect them to walk you through the process. Some will, most won't. You can't reasonably expect an E-6 infantryman recruiter to be able to help you become an aviator, so don't rely on him to. With the resources available online, you can conceivably come up with a plan and guide the recruiter through what you need to do.

My recommendation is not to make the recruiter your first stop. Every form and link you might intially need is at the warrant officer recruiting websitehttp://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/warrant/index.htm. next, I would surf www.kiowapilots.com, but tread lightly, most of us on the site are senior warrants, and a good number are IPs at Rucker. However, they have a great collection of WOC/flight school information. www.aptap.org is another Army Aviator centric site, although tailored more for current aviators. Again, it's filled with crusty, knowleagble warrants, lurk quietly.

Like everywhere else in life, networking is the key. There's nothing that says you can't respectfully request assistance from one of the WOs you talk to via forums to assist you in taking the AFAST, interview, etc. I've had a few applicants I knew only via email, travel several states to come interview. Although it was several years ago, I travelled from CA to VA for 2 days to get a LOR from a CW5 that made my application a slam dunk. Persistance, professionalism, and intiative will pay you back ten-fold. Find the nearest Army Airfield. I guarantee if you act professionally, just about any WO will take the time to talk to you and help you with the process.

Ft Rucker: I'm fresh off a briefing from the Aviation Branch Warrant Officer (head CW5). It was only about 5 years ago, that the Army couldn't get enough WOCs through the doors. From the start of WOC school until being winged, it wasn't uncommon to be in and out in 13 months. Now, Flight School 21 is bogging down the system creating long waiting times for Primary to start, and in between each phase. The average is 2 years now, which in turn has forced USAREC to restrict the acceptance process. This is accomplished by enforcing a minimum cut-off score for AFAST, PFTs and board evaluations. The cut-off is known only to the selection board, but it fluctuates based on how many WOs they need in a particular FY. All other things being equal, if you don't score well on your PFT, ASVAB, and AFAST it very well might be the key discriminator. Don't get frustrated, everything in the military is cyclical. 3 years ago, you had to be half blind to not get accepted, now you have to be rated in the Space Shuttle to competitive, in another year or two it will ebb the other direction.

AFAST/PFT: Many variables will be beyond your control; your eye sight, needs of the Army, not having the resouces to pay for flight training, the opinions of the board, etc. However, there is no excuse for not mastering the PFT and AFAST. These are well within your scope of influence. You don't have to know anything about flight, memorize the Arco AFAST Study Guide and you will get at least a 120 on the test. The PFT is no secret, plan and train accordingly to get a 300. If you master these two items, you've eliminated in your favor, any discriminators the board members may use to pick one packet over another. "I'm just not a good runner" doesn't cut it.

Also, quantative evidence of demonstrated leadership and being well-rounded speaks volumes to an interviewing officer. While civilian flight time is nice, unless you actually have a license and a couple of hundred hours, it doesn't mean much. Save your money and take more college classes. After instruments everyone, even the previously rated pilots all fly about the same. The Army teaches you everything you need to know. I had several hundred hours in airplanes and other than talking on the radios and making ground school easy, it didn't significantly change the course of my career.

Networking: Lastly, I've had several aspiring WOCs contact me via PM with such endearing greetings such as "hey", and "Dude", using incomplete sentences, and asking questions without so much as leaving their name or email address to respond. Nobody expects 'Sir", etc, my first name is fine, but if you aren't able to type a coherent, professional letter (email) using correct grammar, spelling and composition without using texting short hand, you will get an equally curt response. I can say this will most likely be the case for most any officer you ask for help. Remember that written correspondence is often the first impression you make. Unfortunately there's undoubtedly been a few outstanding and qualified candidates who never made it past an email because they wrote like they were texting buddies at school.

I do not have to personally know you to write an outstanding letter of recommendation. However, a face to face meeting is usually required. I don't know of anyone who will write a letter via phone interview unless the appliant can personally be vouched for by a friend, etc. A professional resume, prefaced by email or calls and showing up for the interview in the same attire you would interview in for a corporate position will result in you leaving with a winner in your hand. Most of us in the WO Corps are genuinely interested in helping those who will strengthen Army Aviation, and discouraging those who won't. It benefits us all to have good pilots sitting next to us. I have on occasion, had applicants not show on time, get frustrated when I will not help them study for the AFAST, or they choose to skip their interview entirely, but still want a letter. With that guidance, I have yet to have a sincere applicant not get accepted.


MR-
 

Coota0

Registered User
None
From the start of WOC school until being winged, it wasn't uncommon to be in and out in 13 months. Now, Flight School 21 is bogging down the system creating long waiting times for Primary to start, and in between each phase. The average is 2 years now, which in turn has forced USAREC to restrict the acceptance process.



I started WOCS in February of 2007 and didn't graduate until October of 2010. Two things held me up; Selcting Kiowas and breaking my foot in a couple of places. I know a guy I went to WOCS with that is just now leaving Rucker, and I knew some that were out in 18 months. Everyone that was out in 18 months were National Guard, were flying Blackhawks and deploying soon. On average (for my peers) flight school took about 24 months, a little longer for those selecting Kiowas and Apaches a little less for BlackHawks and Chinooks. Some reasons: The Kiowa and Apache courses are longer and the Kiowa course doesn't start as often because the Army doesn't have as many Kiowas as other aircraft. The Blackhawk course is failry short and starts every two weeks. The Chinooks were weird; some times the class would start after people waited for months for the class to fill, sometimes someone would select and be told to be prepared to start the course in 2 days. Kiowas and Chinooks had the smallest classes which was nice. Even after you select you still have to wait in line behind everyone who selected before you to start your class. I was told I'd be waiting 6 months, then I got a phone call one Friday afternoon at 1820 telling me I'd be taking a PT test Monday morning and staring class on Tuesday so I only ended up waiting about 4.5 months. The bubble situation ebbs and flows like anything else at Rucker.

AFAST/PFT: Many variables will be beyond your control; your eye sight, needs of the Army, not having the resouces to pay for flight training, the opinions of the board, etc. However, there is no excuse for not mastering the PFT and AFAST. These are well within your scope of influence. You don't have to know anything about flight, memorize the Arco AFAST Study Guide and you will get at least a 120 on the test. The PFT is no secret, plan and train accordingly to get a 300. If you master these two items, you've eliminated in your favor, any discriminators the board members may use to pick one packet over another. "I'm just not a good runner" doesn't cut it.

I got caught off guard on my AFAST, I went to MEPS for the physical and was on my way out the door when I was told I needed to take the AFAST and I could take it now or try and reschedule. It had taken several months to get the physical so I took it and passed it, but I didn't do near as well as I would have liked. Tell him to be prepared to take the AFAST as soon as possible.
 

Sapper!

Excuse the BS...
You don't have to know anything about flight, memorize the Arco AFAST Study Guide and you will get at least a 120 on the test.

MR-

I'm not a WO or even in the army any more but this is my case exactly, I have the ARCO book on digits I can email to people. Don't know a thing about flight, studied for an hour or so a couple days before. Took the test and scored 134 and I'm no genius that is for sure. Be sure to ask the test proctor what sections you can score higher by leaving blank if unsure about an answer. Main point is just practice the ARCO book until you are sure you can get the sections completed within the given time limit. That also builds some confidence. Get some familiarization with the big components of a helicopter (swash plate, cyclic, collective,etc) and what the colors of runway lights signify (that was on the test and I did not know). It helps some but won't break anyone either I am sure. Hope that helps.
 
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