Rare designators in USN

[Max the Mad Russian]

There are a lot of officer billets which need long years of experience to be done well/safely or require a high degree of technical knowdge that your average O-3-over-six isn't going to possess.

In some NWC Review, past century, there was an article written by trio of Berkeley or Stanford professors (MBA&Psychology) that posed that the core reason for USN aircraft carrier smooth work on a daily basis is the CPO corps, relatively constant to each ship. How could they to pass over the mustangs? Or back then, in 1980s, things were different?

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

But the CVN isn't my pooka, just as the AEGIS CIC isn't "theirs."

Cruiser's CIC maybe the place where the VAW NFO could be valued high, right? But generally yes, two different worlds. How Brits or Spain could allow the former submariners to command the carriers?

 

[azguy]

Cruiser's CIC maybe the place where the VAW NFO could be valued high, right? But generally yes, two different worlds. How Brits or Spain could allow the former submariners to command the carriers?

Yeah, after losing that VAW liaison for a while (over a decade I think), we are starting to suck them back onto the cruisers. I think the goal is to get one as ship's company, don't know the status of that, but I believe it's becoming more normal to at least have an NFO det onboard for cruise.

As of 2-3 years ago, the AEGIS schoolhouse got a Hawkeye patch wearer on staff to instruct and speak to airwing issues. So the pendulum continues to swing in the right direction.

Would be curious to get the VAW NFO perspective on going to AEGIS platforms/schoolhouses. Is that career enhancing? Do you consider it a good investment of your time?

 

[BigRed389]

Yeah, after losing that VAW liaison for a while (over a decade I think), we are starting to suck them back onto the cruisers. I think the goal is to get one as ship's company, don't know the status of that, but I believe it's becoming more normal to at least have an NFO det onboard for cruise.

As of 2-3 years ago, the AEGIS schoolhouse got a Hawkeye patch wearer on staff to instruct and speak to airwing issues. So the pendulum continues to swing in the right direction.

Would be curious to get the VAW NFO perspective on going to AEGIS platforms/schoolhouses. Is that career enhancing? Do you consider it a good investment of your time?

Yeah they had the Hawkeye dude when I went through the AEGIS course.

Definitely good value added teaching the SWO community on what they bring to the fight, as well as having better background on working with Hornet DCA.

There was also definitely a need for better integration anyway with the future air battle being much more intertwined/mutually supporting.

 

[azguy]

Yeah they had the Hawkeye dude when I went through the AEGIS course... There was also definitely a need for better integration anyway with the future air battle being much more intertwined/mutually supporting.

If I have your timing pegged correctly, "Trebek" probably wasn't there yet when you went through. There has been a pretty consistent Hawkeye NFO presence there for a while, but I believe he is the first patch wearer that VAW has sent there, which is a fairly big deal for them, organizationally. You are 100% on point that new technologies and an increasing threat are necessitating a tighter relationship between AEGIS and CVW operators. I've seen the goodness of that in some jobs I've worked, look forward to more interaction in that vein.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

Interestingly, Brits are just starting the joint training of observers of their FAA's two different helicopter jobs: ASaC and ASW based on single Merlin HM2/Crowsnest platform. Imagine NFO intruding USN helicopter world and this NFO is qualified in both AEW and ASW. Would it be wise?

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

As for Mustangs: One or more of divisions of Combat Systems Dept of CVN often has a CWO4-5 with routine SWO pin in roaster, as one can suggest by the pictures from any Cruise Album. I've been told that DivO in charge of the Hydra flight deck UHF comm system is CWO almost always. Is that truth? I.e. could CWO be the DivO?

 

[Uncle Fester]

Interestingly, Brits are just starting the joint training of observers of their FAA's two different helicopter jobs: ASaC and ASW based on single Merlin HM2/Crowsnest platform. Imagine NFO intruding USN helicopter world and this NFO is qualified in both AEW and ASW. Would it be wise?

The RN and Aussies both have NFO-equivalents in their helos. Could we do it the same way? Sure. RAN Romeo-Hawks are crewed much like the Hoovs were - one pilot and one MAWO up front, and either another WO or AW-equivalent (petty officer) in back. I've heard a couple of HSM types who made the B to R transition say an NFO wouldn't be a bad idea due to all the 'stuff' in the Romeos and its increasing integration with the CSG.

Will we ever do it that way? I seriously doubt it. The AWs get it done and there's not much interest that I've heard in changing things up.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

Thanks a lot, indeed. The more differently trained officers on board the better. Bit some Brits reflect this against the grain: joint AEW/ASW observer is a Jack of all trades. They want two different pipelines plus guys who are trained in ASuW and CAS (for targeting antiship and antitank missiles, respectively) to be trained separately, too. As if they are Germans with traditions to very narrow training everywhere in military.

 

[AllAmerican75]

This comes in line with the decision to make MSRON/RIVRON shore duty-only gigs. . .

I think this is a terrible decision. I think brown water and green water operations should be within the SWO core competencies. There are things that a patrol boat or division of riverine boats can do that a regular gray hull has no business doing and is even ill-equipped to do. I think we should have an AQD or SCP system for expeditionary SWOs to master the art of the knife fight so we don't lose those skills.

 

[BigRed389]

I think this is a terrible decision. I think brown water and green water operations should be within the SWO core competencies. There are things that a patrol boat or division of riverine boats can do that a regular gray hull has no business doing and is even ill-equipped to do. I think we should have an AQD or SCP system for expeditionary SWOs to master the art of the knife fight so we don't lose those skills.

Ha, we did!
But the institutional knowledge is pretty much already gone.
We're going to just do what we did last time, and ask SWCC and EOD to help us out again if we ever need to get that stood up again.

I do agree with azguy that it really is off track for a SWO, particularly for AEGIS SWOs who have enough very complex competencies they should focus on mastering...but I think it could've been a good capability to roll up with an Amphib track, and especially the other oddball ships (PC/MCM)...better overlap there.

 

[azguy]

I think this is a terrible decision. I think brown water and green water operations should be within the SWO core competencies. There are things that a patrol boat or division of riverine boats can do that a regular gray hull has no business doing and is even ill-equipped to do. I think we should have an AQD or SCP system for expeditionary SWOs to master the art of the knife fight so we don't lose those skills.

Fair enough, and I agree that SWOs should get out of the riverine/MSRON business completely; I think we'll get there eventually. The SWCC's have managed to do a great job at small boat warfare without a dedicated URL officer corps. MA's have been doing port security forever, also without a dedicated URL officer corps. I don't see the need for another SCP graveyard in the SWO world. If NECC really thinks he needs a ton of O's running around MSRONs, he should source them himself.

 

[BigRed389]

Fair enough, and I agree that SWOs should get out of the riverine/MSRON business completely; I think we'll get there eventually. The SWCC's have managed to do a great job at small boat warfare without a dedicated URL officer corps. MA's have been doing port security forever, also without a dedicated URL officer corps. I don't see the need for another SCP graveyard in the SWO world. If NECC really thinks he needs a ton of O's running around MSRONs, he should source them himself.

That's a bit misleading.
SWCC also has closed loop detailing on the enlisted side and grows their own Warrants. They also get their URL officer leadership from NSW.

A lot of MSRON institutional knowledge and senior leadership actually comes from the Reserves...which effectively makes it closed loop detailing for both O's and E's.

NECC actually did source a lot of O's to pre-merger RIVRONs, ~30-40% were EOD, and included Command and XO billets for them. Getting rid of them was a SWO decision as part of the merger of the MSRON/RIVRON units.
Creating a non-AEGIS expeditionary track that incorporates small craft makes more sense IMO.

 

[azguy]

That's a bit misleading.
SWCC also has closed loop detailing on the enlisted side and grows their own Warrants. They also get their URL officer leadership from NSW.

Yep, so why can't MSRON/RIVRON also grow their own warrants and use SWCC/NSW Os? Because it's not that important of an asset to the Navy? That's what I thought...

NECC actually did source a lot of O's to pre-merger RIVRONs, ~30-40% were EOD, and included Command and XO billets for them. Getting rid of them was a SWO decision as part of the merger of the MSRON/RIVRON units.

Creating a non-AEGIS expeditionary track that incorporates small craft makes more sense IMO.

This hasn't been fully fleshed out here, and I'm sure you know this, but to be clear... SWOs, like everyone else in DoD, spent the decade+ after 9/11 caring almost exclusively about supporting OEF/OIF/OND/etc (land wars in CENTCOM). For this reason they made some otherwise-inexplicable resource allocation decisions, to include a bonanza in funding for RIVRON (and many other expeditionary missions, IA/GSA being the most prolific).

This is ending, and it's ending quickly. SWOs are getting out of the RIVRON/MSRON and overall expeditionary mission. I don't think that creating a SWO sub-culture of RIVRON guys makes sense. Drive a DDG for a tour and then go RIVRON for the rest of your career?? Being a sub driver, tugboat captain, or BM3 coxswain sets you up just as well as a DDG SWO tour does for that.

 

[BigRed389]

This is ending, and it's ending quickly. SWOs are getting out of the RIVRON/MSRON and overall expeditionary mission. I don't think that creating a SWO sub-culture of RIVRON guys makes sense. Drive a DDG for a tour and then go RIVRON for the rest of your career?? Being a sub driver, tugboat captain, or BM3 coxswain sets you up just as well as a DDG SWO tour does for that.

Huh? MSRON has existed in some force pre-9/11. And like I said, culturally it's very Reserve dominated. Personally, I think that side should've been given over to the Security LDOs anyway...

But I already said there's not much overlap between AEGIS and small craft/expeditionary ops.
I'm not talking about a Small Craft track, I'm talking about an Expeditionary track would roll up EXW ops from the ship side to the shore side.

But last I checked, amphibs are still a big part of the Surface Navy, and we also still man other amphib "customer" units like LCAC and LCU ACU commands with SWOs.
For the side of the Surface Navy that regularly works with the Marines, developing an understanding of ground force commander requirements, CFF/NSFS, and amphib ops AFTER leaving the well deck might not be a bad idea.