Raising Arizona ... Guns, Illegals ... what next???

[Steve Wilkins]

It would be an interesting experiment to see how long LA would last with reduced water and electricity.

Hey, we did it during the summer of 2000. Well....they did it. I was on deployment to the Caribbean sweating my ass off looking for go fasts and doing Shore Patrol with the Columbian Federalies in the back of a pickup truck. But I digress.

 

[Brett327]

Seattle did the same thing. They passed a boycott of AZ (unanimous I believe) but exempted a specific company based in AZ that provides services for their revenue generating devices.....oops, I mean traffic cameras. Yeah, so much for principles. Hypocrites.

I'm johnny come lately to this discussion, but the whole idea of "boycotting" AZ is just political grandstanding (I know, what else is new). These morons in CA OR and WA who say they'll cancel contracts with AZ might want to read up on contract law before they pass meaningless non-binding resolutions that wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of being enforceable. Yeah, maybe they won't renew or initiate new contracts with AZ, but my money is on all of this blowing over and being old news by the time that opportunity rolls around.

Brett

 

[Steve Wilkins]

They aren't working for less than market wages; they're working for less than government mandated wages. Big difference.

And it's not exploitation because the people who take the jobs make that decision. At any moment they are free to work for someone else or go back to wherever they came from.

It's no different than buying goods on the black market. Except that in these cases, it's a service that is being bought and sold on the black market. How hard is to understand the simple concept that if someone is here illegally, they do not have the right to work for an employer of their choosing.

Is it exploitation to hire a college student on internship for free rather than pay someone $30k/year to do the same job?

1) This scenario assumes the college student is an American or at the very least, here legally. 2) Internships are a beneficial (and often required) part of a person's education 3) they are short lived and have specific time constraints and objectives that must be met

Don't try to compare the moral equivalency of an internship, which is a legal transaction between two parties to that of illegal immigrants working in the fields, construction sites, etc where they are paid less, under the table (i.e. in cash), where the transaction itself is illegal. The two don't equate.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

I'm johnny come lately to this discussion, but the whole idea of "boycotting" AZ is just political grandstanding (I know, what else is new). These morons in CA OR and WA who say they'll cancel contracts with AZ might want to read up on contract law before they pass meaningless non-binding resolutions that wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of being enforceable. Yeah, maybe they won't renew or initiate new contracts with AZ, but my money is on all of this blowing over and being old news by the time that opportunity rolls around.

Brett

There are a lot of contracts that can be amended mid term or even canceled altogether. It just depends on the contract.

 

[Brett327]

There are a lot of contracts that can be amended mid term or even canceled altogether. It just depends on the contract.

I'm betting that most of the big ones can not. CA or its various municipalities don't have the luxury, in the current economy, to go around making expensive changes on a whim. Most of the electorate probably doesn't give a rat's ass about this issue, even in areas of hispanic concentration.

Brett

 

[wink]

I'm betting that most of the big ones can not. CA or its various municipalities don't have the luxury, in the current economy, to go around making expensive changes on a whim.
Brett

I think this is so. Even if you got out of an AZ contract, to conduct another bid or search for a new service/vendor is costly and it is very possible the cost of the new contract would be more. There would not have been an AZ contract to cancel if it wasn't less costly in the beginning. So any alternative after the fact is likely to be more costly to the fine taxpayers of CA, WA, etc. Can't think of people more deserving.

I'd like to see a CA public safety organization that is about to take delivery on a new multi million dollar helo from MD Helicopters (HQ and built in AZ) cancel it and suffer the consequences. It ain't gunna happen. Are they also not flying on US Airways, based in AZ? It isn't clear to me whether these boycotts apply to items produced and supplied from AZ or just AZ based companies. Maybe they should not be buying computer products with Intel parts manufactured in AZ, or advanced communications from Motorola. It is all a typical lefty feel good sound good impractical illogical response.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

It is all a typical lefty feel good sound good impractical illogical response.

It is typical. If a state passes a law you don't like then don't go there. Instead they want to force their opinions on others, as usual.

 

[Spekkio]

Do you know anything about economics?Hiring illegal aliens is a against the law.

You keep falling back on this one statement. I agree with you that it is illegal. But people still do it anyway. Unlike you, I don't consider something illegal to be automatically immoral.

It also brings other risks to the business/employer. So, to make it worth the risk the employer has to get something more out of the arrangement then simple labor he can get without the risk from a legal employee. What he gets is lower labor costs. What the hell do you mean, by the less then govt wages verses market. They work for less then market wages. The lowest wage in the market may or may not be a minimum govt wage. There is no effective difference. Most illegals get paid less then legal workers.

What I mean is that the federal government mandates that employers pay workers at least $7.25/hour, regardless of their skill or experience level. This is not necessarily the market price for labor in that respect; the federal government has effectively removed the supply and demand curve from unskilled labor. Since employers are forced to pay more than the market price by our government, they are seeking other options. One of those options is to (legally) outsource unskilled labor jobs to overseas and then import the goods. However, I can guarantee that the Chinese kids making Nike shoes make much less money and live in worse conditions than Jose the illegal immigrant doing roof construction. Another option is to hire illegal immigrants. While it is a risk, the tax breaks and lower wages make up for that cost, as you pointed out. But that risk isn't what keeps wages low for illegal immigrants; what keeps wages low is the fact that they are often working unskilled, uneducated labor jobs.

If we didn't have a ridiculous minimum wage and self-entitled Americans, then employers wouldn't have to resort to hiring illegal immigrants or outsourcing labor. The problem of companies hiring illegal immigrants is a symptom, not a cause. The cause is intrusive government labor laws.

ex•ploi•ta•tion
1. The act of employing to the greatest possible advantage.
2 Utilization of another person or group for selfish purposes.

You just described every single employment arrangement in the U.S. No one hires people out of charity; they hire people so that they can grow their business and attain more wealth. And most successful companies aren't in the habit of paying people more than they are worth (with the exception of mandatory minimum wages), which means they are employing them to their greatest possible advantage. Can I borrow your copy of the communist manifesto?

No, and not because the college student can leave or refuse. It is because the deal made for the students labor was made without the presence of external pressure or influence. The illegal immigrant needs to eat, he needs money and will take the black market deal to not be deported. The student doesn't need the internship to sustain himself. In fact, he finds the value of the internship in experience, networking and education to be $30K per year or more. If he was offered an internship he valued at $40K a year, he would take that over the internship valued at $30K. The market values legal labor for landscaping at, say $9.00/hour. But the employer puts the value of the risk and hassle associated with hiring an illegal at $2/hour, so the illegal is hired at $7.00/hour and the employer pockets the balance. That is exploitation. You are an economic moron.

There most certainly is external pressure and influence on both accounts. The college student is under pressure to be successful; that pressure leads him to seek an unpaid internship because that's what he thinks will land him a great job when he graduates college. Most of the time this is a fallacy; he will be hired in the same $30-40k entry level job after college regardless of the fact that he did an internship. But the fact that there are college students who do internships and are lucky enough to land that killer job making close to 6-figures out of college keep the hope alive for others to do the same.

Similarly, an illegal immigrant working in the U.S. is doing so because he can have a better life than what he'd have in wherever he came from. Yea, he makes shit money, but he's got a roof over his head that has working plumbing and electricity, which is more than he'd have in his home country. And his kids might one day grow up to become successful.

In both cases there are external pressures, but it's the same external pressures that America was founded upon -- the concept of working hard to attain a better life and more wealth. The only thing standing in the way of that is the US gov't telling them no, you can't do that. But it's really the companies exploiting workers that are the bad guys, right?

Nice try but no. The issue has more to do with the lack of assimilation into our culture which means learning the language we speak here. If they want to speak their native language among friends and family, more power to em. However, English is the common language in the country and they should be expected to learn it AND use it when conducting business. Hell, they should WANT to learn it if they want to live here. The fact that they don't says a lot.

This same kind of battle has been fought with every immigrant generation since the founding of our country. First it was the Irish, then the Eastern Europeans, now it's Latinos. Turns out these people all have children who grow up with English speaking friends and the country's culture -- all 234 years of it -- manages to move on just fine.

So is stopping the sale and use of crack cocaine or drunk driving. So using your rationale that it's an impossible goal, are we supposed to not even enforce those particular laws as well? Illegal immigrants (i.e. those people that are in this country illegally, from any country of origin) should not be voting. They should not be driving. They should not be working. And, they have no right to representation in the State and Federal legislatures. I keep hearing a lot of boo hoo'ing from the left on this issue, yet offer no suggestions on how to correct the problem.

No, I don't think that drug laws are useful in any capacity. It turns out, judging by arrest rates, that people learned how to stop smoking crack all on their own. As for drunk driving, I don't know why people haven't figured that out yet...the US has the toughest DD laws in the world, yet we continually have the highest rate of DD fatalities. Clearly tougher laws aren't doing anything to solve the problem.

And another person who's accusing me of being leftist in all this, despite the fact that I'm continually arguing that the government is meddling way too much. Just because I don't grab a pitchfork and want to expel all illegal immigrants from this country RIGHT NOW doesn't mean I'm a leftist. You want a solution? Rebuild our federal immigration process so that it isn't painstakingly difficult for people to come here legally short of marrying a citizen, and get rid of the asinine way that we clandestinely decide who gets to come and who doesn't. But that's not going to happen because it'll take 2/3 of 535 people to agree on it, and those people are elected by people who really hate 'those guys who don't want to assimilate.'

So what's going to happen is that the right will pay lip service to being tough on immigration while embracing the source of cheap labor for its small business constituents; the left will continue to tout its line of being immigration friendly, and nothing is going to get done. A4's was right -- it's all about votes, after all.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

You keep falling back on this one statement. I agree with you that it is illegal. But people still do it anyway. Unlike you, I don't consider something illegal to be automatically immoral.

I had to read that a couple time because I couldn't believe you just said that. You don't NOT enforce laws because people will continue participating in unlawful behavior anyway. That's just asinine. We are a society that expects our laws to be followed and if they aren't, there should be consequences. Similarly, we expect and depend on laws to be enforced. Illegal immigration doesn't get a free pass on this because some people's feelings will be hurt.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

If we didn't have a ridiculous minimum wage and self-entitled Americans, then employers wouldn't have to resort to hiring illegal immigrants or outsourcing labor. The problem of companies hiring illegal immigrants is a symptom, not a cause. The cause is intrusive government labor laws.

Well, you can blame FDR and the New Deal for that.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

ex•ploi•ta•tion
1. The act of employing to the greatest possible advantage.
2 Utilization of another person or group for selfish purposes.

You just described every single employment arrangement in the U.S. No one hires people out of charity; they hire people so that they can grow their business and attain more wealth. And most successful companies aren't in the habit of paying people more than they are worth (with the exception of mandatory minimum wages), which means they are employing them to their greatest possible advantage. Can I borrow your copy of the communist manifesto?

The most successful companies also don't pay people less than what they're worth. Good talent is a bitch to find. When companies find someone they want to hold on to, it is the successful companies that don't take advantage of the employee. Yes, businesses are in the business to make a profit, but don't equate that to being selfish.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

There most certainly is external pressure and influence on both accounts. The college student is under pressure to be successful; that pressure leads him to seek an unpaid internship because that's what he thinks will land him a great job when he graduates college. Most of the time this is a fallacy; he will be hired in the same $30-40k entry level job after college regardless of the fact that he did an internship. But the fact that there are college students who do internships and are lucky enough to land that killer job making close to 6-figures out of college keep the hope alive for others to do the same.

Internships are often a pain in the ass for the company hosting the intern. Companies don't exactly get a whole lot of direct value out of most internships. Yeah, they get to do those menial tasks that nobody else wants to do, but they get far more out of the experience than the company does. Oh, and of course a lot of these internships are driven by degree requirements at any given university.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

This same kind of battle has been fought with every immigrant generation since the founding of our country. First it was the Irish, then the Eastern Europeans, now it's Latinos. Turns out these people all have children who grow up with English speaking friends and the country's culture -- all 234 years of it -- manages to move on just fine.

I've heard this argument before and it doesn't really hold water. Those immigrants you speak of 1) did so legally and 2) genuinely wanted to be an American and a part of this country.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

And another person who's accusing me of being leftist in all this, despite the fact that I'm continually arguing that the government is meddling way too much. Just because I don't grab a pitchfork and want to expel all illegal immigrants from this country RIGHT NOW doesn't mean I'm a leftist. You want a solution? Rebuild our federal immigration process so that it isn't painstakingly difficult for people to come here legally short of marrying a citizen, and get rid of the asinine way that we clandestinely decide who gets to come and who doesn't. But that's not going to happen because it'll take 2/3 of 535 people to agree on it, and those people are elected by people who really hate 'those guys who don't want to assimilate.'

We should just have an amnesty program. That'll fix everything. Oh wait, we did that already.

 

[wink]

...words...

I just don't know where to start. You have no earthly idea what makes up a beneficial economic arrangement. The beauty of our free market, even in labor, is that an equatable arrangement means both parties actually think they are getting a good deal, many times both think they are getting the better deal. if they don't, they move on. I don't get the fed min wage argument. It is the effective market wage and it only affects min wage earners. Moreover, most unskilled workers earn more then min wage. You may be saying that min wage laws are harmful to the labor market. If you are, good on ya. But the very fact it exists is not important to this argument. Fed min wage, free market set wage, union wage, it makes no difference. If an employer knows his worker is illegal he will likely pay him less then a legal worker. You are the one saying business is evil. I am just saying they respond to incentives and dis-incentives, which is what economics really is.

Your comment wrt assimilation and illegal immigrants is totally wrong and not supported by facts. Children of Hispanic illegal immigrants do not assimilate like all other past immigrants. The studies have been published. In the third generation legal grandchildren of illegal immigrants are doing no better then their illegal grandparents. This was never true of legal immigrants from any country and is particularly different from the Irish and other European examples you site. Illegal immigration is creating a permanent underclass in American and it has nothing to do with being in the shadows. You can see this with your own eyes in many western agricultural communities. In the last 30 or more years they have become largely Hispanic with 3-4 generations living in the same community. The later generations are still doing much of the same work as their illegal fore bearers. If not the same work, close to the same wages. They still predominately speak Spanish because they have no reason to speak English in that community in those jobs. Yet these off spring are legal citizens of the US. Therefore, illegal immigration breeds more people who become dependant on government assistance and they are completely legal to seek out and benefit from that aide. People in this class tend to be left leaning because of their dependency on the government so they vote DEM, and legally so, they are US citizens. As was said before it is all about votes. Votes mean power. They don't have to be cast illegally.

For God's sake please read a book or do some more research. Lord knows I don't have all the answers and my wife reminds me I'm not as smart as I think I am. But even though I am over 50 and managed a respectable Navy career to O-5 and have a job of great responsibility, I still live by the old JO maxim to keep my ears open and my mouth shut until I really know what I am talking about and have earned the credibility to be taken serious. I live with illegal immigration, I have read quite a bit about it, I have some intimate knowledge of enforcement, I have the benefit of some of the best legal counsel in the state in the form of an attorney spouse. I don't expect you to ever totally agree with me. Just give me a good contest. You are in the bush leagues. Study up and bring the wood or stay in the dug out.