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Racism in the Military

P

Pags

N/A
pilot
Spekkio said:
I'm not saying that O-6's behavior is okay. I'm saying that it's a completely different problem with different solutions if that O-6 were an example of broader systemic racism rather than someone who slipped between the cracks. I'm also saying it's wrong to accuse an entire organization of systemic racism because of someone's bad experiences.

We've had O-6's who are mysoginists, adulterers, thiefs, imbezzlers, and traitors... probably a murderer somewhere in there.

Indicative of systemic issues? Maybe put together these cases indicate a problem that the promotion screening process didn't weed these guys out, but none of them alone indicates a systemic issue in any particular area.
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Didn't mean to imply you were. The Navy and other services are a cross section of society. So of course there are racists in the mix at levels. But I'm not sure that's the same as systemic racism (it may not be mutually exclusive).

My impression after 11yrs of ACDU was that if those in leadership positions largely supported the larger diversity goals of the USN to the point that it would be hard to know what their private thoughts were.
 
Treetop Flyer

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
Pags said:
Honest question: if the definition of "systemic rasicm" is such that people in the system can't see it, how do people in the system (who aren't intending to be racist) fix it if it can't be seen?

If the definition of systemic rasicm is so broad to contain "old white men are racist because they can't not be even if they're trying" then what are we left with?

How do we make it better?
Click to expand...
You have to believe
 
squorch2

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
Awareness is the first step: https://www.racialequitytools.org/resourcefiles/mcintosh.pdf

google has lots on being anti-racist, some notable links:

nmaahc.si.edu

Being Antiracist

No one is born racist or antiracist; these result from the choices we make. Being antiracist results from a conscious decision to make frequent, consistent, equitable choices daily. These choices require ongoing self-awareness and self-reflection as we move through life. In the absence of making...
nmaahc.si.edu nmaahc.si.edu


How to Be an Antiracist: Kendi, Ibram X.: 9780525509288: Amazon.com: Books

How to Be an Antiracist [Kendi, Ibram X.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. How to Be an Antiracist
www.amazon.com
 
FinkUFreaky

FinkUFreaky

Well-Known Member
pilot
HAL Pilot said:
By which you mean “wokeness”...

Sorry but I’m not going to read anything that’s based on the assumptions that since I’m white I’m automatically racist whether I realize it or not.
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Yep. And as mentioned a few times now, there is a difference between racism on an individual level, and racism on a systemic level. Both are bad. Haven't seen anyone post something on the systemic side in the military yet.

And @squorch2 , I haven't been here (actively) long but it's getting harder and harder to take your posts seriously.
 
Brett327

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
FinkUFreaky said:
Yep. And as mentioned a few times now, there is a difference between racism on an individual level, and racism on a systemic level. Both are bad. Haven't seen anyone post something on the systemic side in the military yet.

And @squorch2 , I haven't been here (actively) long but it's getting harder and harder to take your posts seriously.
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None of his posts should ever be taken seriously.
 
Spekkio

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
FinkUFreaky said:
Yep. And as mentioned a few times now, there is a difference between racism on an individual level, and racism on a systemic level. Both are bad. Haven't seen anyone post something on the systemic side in the military yet.
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This is still missing the point. One doesn't make a case for systemic racism through personal anecdotes. Some items that could demonstrate systemic racism include:
  • Policies or procedures that target people based on race
  • Recruitment strategies that shut out minorities
  • Promotions preferentially given based on race vice merit
  • Unequal punishments given for similar UCMJ violations on a mass scale
  • A system that doesn't allow complaints of racism to be investigated by a third party
 
BigRed389

BigRed389

Registered User
None
Spekkio said:
This is still missing the point. One doesn't make a case for systemic racism through personal anecdotes. Some items that could demonstrate systemic racism include:
  • Policies or procedures that target people based on race
  • Recruitment strategies that shut out minorities
  • Promotions preferentially given based on race vice merit
  • Unequal punishments given for similar UCMJ violations on a mass scale
  • A system that doesn't allow complaints of racism to be investigated by a third party
Click to expand...

Words matter.
I think you are mixing up systemic and systematic.

Synonyms for "systemic" are: general, total, widespread, extensive...you get the point by now.
"Systematic" relates better to the above - synonyms are: methodical, deliberate, etc.

Most of your examples above would be good examples of systematic racism.
#4 would be an exception: If you are able to string enough cases (anecdotes) of those together, they indicate possibility of systemic racism.
#3 is another possibility, but with our promotion system, preferential treatment towards promotions (which would really come from anonymous board member voting, or Reporting Senior rankings) is effectively impossible to prove.

I don't think you could effectively argue systematic racism exists in the military...all official policies are scrutinized to align with Equal Opportunity guidance.
Systemic racism is a more subjective definition, and one could certainly argue for or against.
 
Gonzo08

Gonzo08

*1. Gangbar Off
None
HAL Pilot said:
By which you mean “wokeness”...

Sorry but I’m not going to read anything that’s based on the assumptions that since I’m white I’m automatically racist whether I realize it or not.
Click to expand...

Disclaimer: The following opinion reflects the issue with racism in the US, not in the US Navy

But @squorch2 is right though. It doesn't matter if people here claim it's liberal "wokeness", it's literally advocating ignorance. People in this thread are so blinded by their insistence that there is no problem, or that they're NOT a part of the problem that they won't even entertain the idea of broadening their world-view, which is in turn enabling the continuance of systemic racism in the United States.

The book I mentioned earlier, White Fragility (which is on one of the lists squorch posted btw), would literally explain to and help you (the royal you) understand why people in this thread are saying the things they are. Pretty much every excuse I've read in this thread is brought up in that book.

It's time to stop burying our heads in the mud; education is not a dirty word.
 
nodropinufaka

nodropinufaka

Well-Known Member
Gonzo08 said:
Disclaimer: The following opinion reflects the issue with racism in the US, not in the US Navy

But @squorch2 is right though. It doesn't matter if people here claim it's liberal "wokeness", it's literally advocating ignorance. People in this thread are so blinded by their insistence that there is no problem, or that they're NOT a part of the problem that they won't even entertain the idea of broadening their world-view, which is in turn enabling the continuance of systemic racism in the United States.

The book I mentioned earlier, White Fragility (which is on one of the lists squorch posted btw), would literally explain to and help you (the royal you) understand why people in this thread are saying the things they are. Pretty much every excuse I've read in this thread is brought up in that book.

It's time to stop burying our heads in the mud; education is not a dirty word.
Click to expand...

well said.

Advocating ignorance or believing there is no problem because you aren’t racist is a major problem.
 
johnboyA6E

johnboyA6E

Well-Known Member
None
Gonzo08 said:
White Fragility (which is on one of the lists squorch posted btw), would literally explain to and help you (the royal you) understand why people in this thread are saying the things they are. Pretty much every excuse I've read in this thread is brought up in that book.
Click to expand...

I generally agree with you, but this particular author goes too far and I can't get on board.

According to this author, "we can say that nice, white people who really aren’t doing anything other than being nice people are racist. We are complicit with that system. There is no neutral place. ". This starts to sound like totalitarianism.

According to this author, "Racism is what happens when you back one group's racial bias with legal authority and institutional control. ... When you back one group's collective bias with that kind of power, it is transformed into a far-reaching system. It becomes the default. It's automatic. It's not dependent on your agreement or belief or approval. "

This is where they lose me. You don't get to call me a racist because of the actions or beliefs of others. If someone in a position of power makes decisions based on their biases, that doesn't reflect on me. If someone wants to point out things that i've done or things that i've said that reflect my biases, even unconscious bias, then fine let's have that discussion. And it's a good idea for everyone to really think about their own biases, especially unconscious ones. But you don't get to assume that i'm a racist because of the color of my skin, then make me have to somehow prove a negative.

According to this author, I'm a racist if I'm "not doing anything". By that logic, I need to be doing something to be considered not racist, but what? Is going to a protest enough? Making a donation to BLM? Post a woke message on twitter? Who do I take my reading list to, to verify that I've read all the suggested readings and videos? Who checks my papers and verifies my credentials?

I'm told that if I don't support BLM then I'm a racist. But I looked a the BLM website today, and a major plank of their platform is the demand to defund police nationwide. So, if I don't support a nationwide defunding of the police then I'm racist?

We seem to have very quickly gone from "we have a serious problem with law enforcement, and blacks are all to often treated unfairly by police, sometimes resulting in their deaths" to "all whites are racist"
 
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