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Plane Crash in KY

Mefesto said:
One thing that no one seems to understand, or acknowledge... It is not the local controllers (tower) responsibility to watch what you do, once cleared to do it. If he clears you to land on runway umpty squat, and you land on something else... guess whose at fault. It goes the otherway too. If they clear you to take off on runway xx, they can turn their back and make coffee if they want. You fong it away, it's NOT THEIR FAULT. Their duties are control of the local airspace, safe and expeditious arrivals and departures. Some google nerd can search through the 7110.65 and post the exact verbage if you want.
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my thoughts precisely....though in a perfect world ATC would back up a pilot in need/error, they are not freaking babysitters. It seems as though everyone has forgotten lately that it is the PIC who holds sole responsibility (well, maybe the FO too in this case) for the safety of the aircraft and its passengers....and for executing ATC clearances in a proper manner when able. Pretty sure that both the Comair crew and ATC were on the same page about this when that jet got balled up. I just wish that people in the media could admit that this was pilot error, pure and simple...
 
MIDDY... BS! Sounds like you should have been a lawyer.. That PIC crap is true but.... doesn't mean ATC can't help prevent accidents.. Yes they CAN turn their back and make coffee- Tell that to the families.. They CAN also look out the window... Choices.. We help them with see and avoid/TCAS/Accepting the visual; they can help us too.. Who's in charge, to me, comes in the tie breaker decision otherwise speak up if you see something wrong and sort it out on deck! NOW I do agree that in this case it does appear that the crew was AFU (Rumor I got was that morning they also initially went to preflight the wrong jet... So the SA meter was definately pegged low).
 
Boom Boom said:
MIDDY... BS! Sounds like you should have been a lawyer.. That PIC crap is true but.... doesn't mean ATC can't help prevent accidents.. Yes they CAN turn their back and make coffee- Tell that to the families.. They CAN also look out the window... Choices.. We help them with see and avoid/TCAS/Accepting the visual; they can help us too.. Who's in charge, to me, comes in the tie breaker decision otherwise speak up if you see something wrong and sort it out on deck! NOW I do agree that in this case it does appear that the crew was AFU (Rumor I got was that morning they also initially went to preflight the wrong jet... So the SA meter was definately pegged low).
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I think you just kind of reiterated my point. Either way, ATC should have been on game enough to stop this, but in reality that is not always possible. Maybe something pressing was distracting the contoller in the tower....maybe the controller assumed that the Comair crew was experienced enough to not get themselves in this sort of situation....maybe 1000 things could have happened to prevent the controller from averting this situation. Just to illustrate my point about PIC responsibility, every time I go flying (even if I'm IFR in VMC) I keep an eye out for other a/c....most of the time ATC calls traffic long before I see it, but there have been about 3 instances that I can remember where they haven't which all could have ended in fatalities.....1) short final on ILS approach to uncontrolled field (under ATC radar contact), some guy cuts right in front of me (less than 1/4 mile) in spite of my advisory calls for the previous 15 nm--I'm forced to evade in marginal VFR and go missed while ATC was twiddling its thumbs wondering what happened; 2) transiting through eastern WA, wrong alt/heading VFR traffic on Victor airway comes w/n 1 nm same altitude and forces my a/c into diving evasive maneuver while under "VFR flight following"--with no ATC traffic advisories; 3) (not quite as unnerving as previous 2 instances) transiting from NAS Lemoore to R2508 in flight of 2 Rhinos, we pass opposite direction from Citation jet well inside FAA a/c seperation minimums while presumably under ATC control (not entirely sure how you military aviator types work your clearances but I will venture to guess that we were on some sort of IFR clearance at the altitude we were cruising at)

All of these are examples of situations where ATC was doing its job, but wasn't necissarily providing a reliable back-up for us/me. Only PIC attention to detail averted possible mishaps

That said, I think everyone would benefit from a more staffed ATC community and I agree that the controller by all means should have stopped this from happening. If I were a family member of one of those 49 people, I would be more than a little angry at the "system". But in the blame game, responsibility falls where the written law puts it, and (w/o sounding like too much of a lawyer) I think in this case the law would find the aircrew at fault. I see ATC's failure as more of a broken link in the chain--a contributing factor, rather than the original cause of the incident.
 
Middy.. All true.. However, my guess is the first two did not have operating transponders (or decided (poorly I might add) not to use them). And the last was
transiting from NAS Lemoore to R2508 in flight of 2 Rhinos, we pass opposite direction from Citation jet ;not entirely sure how you military aviator types work your clearances
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Were you in the F-18s or in the Citation? :confused:

As a side rumor: Heard the Controller proceeded to conduct administrative duties after clearing the flight for takeoff...
 
This happened becasue two pilots f@cked it away, they took off from the wrong runway and had numerous opportunities to fix it and didnt for whatever reason. That is the cold hard fact, everyone F's it away to one extent or another at one point or another: some get scared and learn, some get hurt and live and some get dead and take a whole bunch of innocent people with them. IF ATC had vectored two bird into each other in the CLAG then yeah blame them but that wasnt the case.
An ATC controller should be able to realistically expect that after issueing a T/O clearance an aircraft will either take off safely or abort due to safetly that is why pilots have wings and ATC types do not!
 
Dunno... Maybe you guys were in an ALTRAV... Not sure if those are protected airspace? Now with RVSM seperation is 1000 ft vertically at all altitudes.. Or maybe the citation got one of those call me when you land radio transmissions? A few years ago, I remember listening to a citation at 19.5 obviously above FL180 get a call, me on deck, cause he thought it was a VFR atlitude.... Never know what the conversation is on the other end unless you are on the same freq... :icon_wink
 
Did you guys watch that video?????

The NTSB uses "speical software" to replicate conditions of the accident...

special software = Microsoft Flight Simulator :eek:

Look at the link...and then click Pilot's Eye View of the crash on the left.
 
During HTs I was observing a BI flight in the Eastern Op area, where you get advisory calls from ATC, and were overflown by a twin engine prop. It technically isn't under Pcola Approach's "territory" but they provide it as a service. We got the call from Appch about traffic, and I saw it from the back seat well off to our left. The guy overflew us so closely that I could've read his tail number had it not been sunset. He was just bombing along not talking to ATC at all on his way to CEW or something. Bottom line, if the IP and I hadn't seen him, it could've been a very bad day, as we had to do a little maneuvering to avoid him.

So I'm gonna throw my hat into the ring saying its ultimately the PIC/flight crew responsibility. Everytime I fly I'm prepared to accept whatever happens as my fault, even though I don't sign for the aircraft.
 
Mefesto said:
ATC will provide VFR advisories like that on a work load permitting basis. And whose to say that guy didn't have you in sight or on TCAD?
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I'm not trying to blame anyone or say he didn't. I was just trying to say that the ultimate responsibility is on the pilots in the plane. And the tail number comment was just me trying to say how close we were, nothing more.
 
Boom Boom said:
Dunno... Maybe you guys were in an ALTRAV... Not sure if those are protected airspace? Now with RVSM seperation is 1000 ft vertically at all altitudes.. Or maybe the citation got one of those call me when you land radio transmissions? A few years ago, I remember listening to a citation at 19.5 obviously above FL180 get a call, me on deck, cause he thought it was a VFR atlitude.... Never know what the conversation is on the other end unless you are on the same freq... :icon_wink
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yep, I don't really know the whole story there....I asked up front about it as I saw this guy cruise right between and ~500 ft below our 2 jets (we were in basically a combat spread), but the pilot's response was stepped on by some other traffic and I forgot to ask him later (I hadn't really been following his previous exchanges w/ ATC, but he sounded surprised when it happened)
 
The latest info about the LEX Comair Crash:

A lawyer for the first officer of Comair Flight 5191 has asserted a novel, and controversial, defense in 21 lawsuits filed against him: that the 47 passengers of the doomed flight share the blame for their deaths.
In response to questions from a plaintiff's lawyer, James Polehinke's lawyer asserted that the passengers killed in the Aug. 27, 2006, crash should have known that Blue Grass Airport was dangerous because of considerable media coverage of a massive runway construction project there. They should have known the air traffic control tower was understaffed, that airports in Louisville and Northern Kentucky are safer and that taking off in the dark is dangerous, wrote William E. Johnson, a well-known attorney from Frankfort.
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The rest of the article: http://www.kentucky.com/454/story/297109.html
 
I've always maintained SAN should have an LSO on top of the parking garage when they're running the LOC 27 and reporting anything approaching basic VFR . Granted I've only worked with LSEs but anything would be an improvement(unless said LSO flew an airplane built by the quiche eaters). I'm tired of being the SAN
weather bird for FEDEX.
There, we've morphed LSOs into a commercial airline theme; although I do think this idea has some merit.
 
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