Pass/Fail Lesson On Density Altitude

[lowflier03]

Even more important in Tactical flying, (And should be pushed to a required planning stage for all flights) is punching the Ps numbers. Just because NATOPS says the AOB limit is 45* or 30* at high DA doesn't mean the aircraft can necessarily do it on a given day. I much prefer the airforce method of punching the Ps numbers for every flight and those become your max AOB and A/S limits.

 

[Rocketman]

I had my private before joining and I have to say I think that the civilian stall training was worthless compared to what we get in flight school. Seems like the emphasis on the civilian side is on stall recovery at altitude and just as an airwork drilll. It was never stressed to me the importance of being able to recover a low altitude or in the pattern.

I don't want to interupt the good RW and Mil FW gouge being passed out but just as an FYI, you still get some pretty good stall/spin training when learning to fly sailplanes. When thermaling you are always in a turn and on the edge of a stall. I learned about over the top spin entries the old fashioned way. Too much angle of bank too slow and too much pull in a thermal and over she goes. It looked just like the last frames of the vid except I was plenty high enough for the nose to fall thru and still recover. I won't forget it.

 

[Schnugg]

Anyone else feel a little uncomfortable watching that waiting for the mishap to happen...???

 

[A4sForever]

Anyone else feel a little uncomfortable watching that waiting for the mishap to happen...???

Roger that ...

 

[mmx1]

Ps = power _____ ?

I'm an HT stud so all I know is HIGE/HOGE and Natops limits

 

[lowflier03]

Ps is commonly referred to as Power Excess. It is part of the E-M Diagrams (Energy Maneuverability) All aircraft have them, but we punch the numbers before every tactical flight. Has various values that can all be cross referenced depending on what you want to get out of it. They are essentially multi-dimensional engineering charts. Each chart is for a given temperature, altitude and aircraft weight/configuration. (Specific for that aircraft.) You can get useful things such as Max AOB you can pull and still maintain level flight, radius of turn, max level airspeed, Max G, etc. All of those numbers can be determined for level flight, given rate of climb, given rate of descent, etc.

Even more sobering is that when reading them you can determine how fast you will fall out of the sky if you overbank in a given situation.

 

[Pags]

Even more important in Tactical flying, (And should be pushed to a required planning stage for all flights) is punching the Ps numbers.

That and your blade stall envelope (included for free on Ps charts!). Since entry into or inducement of is a prohibited item, you should probably know where it is to preclude said entry/inducement.

 

[abracadabra11]

Even more important in Tactical flying, (And should be pushed to a required planning stage for all flights) is punching the Ps numbers. Just because NATOPS says the AOB limit is 45* or 30* at high DA doesn't mean the aircraft can necessarily do it on a given day. I much prefer the airforce method of punching the Ps numbers for every flight and those become your max AOB and A/S limits.

I don't know how other communities do it, but HSC world (or perhaps I should be more specific and say HSC-East) doesn't crunch Ps on a day-to-day basis.

 

[Pags]

I don't know how other communities do it, but HSC world (or perhaps I should be more specific and say HSC-East) doesn't crunch Ps on a day-to-day basis.

That's because Lowflier is a WWS guy, so he's tactical on EVERY flight

All jesting aside, it doesn't hurt to look at them. They contain a lot of good performance info in one spot and you can quickly and easily get a good idea of how the bird's gonna handle.

 

[MasterBates]

I crunches Ps very rarely in the 60B when I flew it 2003-07. Maybe a dozen times in 700 hours. If that.

 

[Gatordev]

I crunches Ps very rarely in the 60B when I flew it 2003-07. Maybe a dozen times in 700 hours. If that.

But that's kind of like saying I never did G warm-ups in the T-34.

 

[FlyinRock]

According to a friend of mine who was on the accident investigation team for that accident, they didn't find that tape until the next year and it was torn out of the cassette during the crash. How it ever survived the snow and cold is amazing.
That was many years ago and has been used for FIRC's for nearly as long to illustrate the dangers of both mountain flying, and high density altitude.
It was a series of mistakes that ended up with two fatals and happens nearly every year.
I have complained for a long time about the poor stall and spin training in the civil aviation world. IMNHO, too many civilian CFI's are afraid to do stalls OR spins and to some degree that is driven by insurance companies and their ever increasing restrictions. Damned shame.
I will continue to be a hard ass with my studs and make them do stalls from all kinds of normally anticipated attitudes/configurations and a lot from the not anticipated ones that kill people. When I get done with them, they understand what a stall/spin is and understand all the elements. They make not like them, but they sure as hell understand them and that is my job as an instructor.

 

[Flugelman]

I have complained for a long time about the poor stall and spin training in the civil aviation world. IMNHO, too many civilian CFI's are afraid to do stalls OR spins and to some degree that is driven by insurance companies and their ever increasing restrictions. Damned shame.

+1

I was blessed with a flight instructor that made sure I had seen a full spin before he would let me solo. Ever try to spin a Colt? Hard as hell to do, usually winds up in a spiral after a quarter turn from departure. We finally took a Cherokee 140 up and did several spins, had a ball. I have always felt comfortable in my ability to recognize and avoid stall/spin situations.

Usta spin the 150 Aerobat at Key West just as a way to lose altitude after an aerobatic session.

 

[pourts]

I will continue to be a hard ass with my studs and make them do stalls from all kinds of normally anticipated attitudes/configurations and a lot from the not anticipated ones that kill people.

Don't want you to reveal any secrets to your potential IFS studs, but what kind of things would you do? All we did in IFS was power on/ power off, and no spins.

Usta spin the 150 Aerobat at Key West just as a way to lose altitude after an aerobatic session.

Weren't spins done by WW1 pilots as a sort of penetration maneuver to get under the cloud deck to land? I think I remember hearing that somewhere.

 

[a2b2c3]

Weren't spins done by WW1 pilots as a sort of penetration maneuver to get under the cloud deck to land? I think I remember hearing that somewhere.

Yes they were. Back when you didn't have any instruments to know your attitude it was routine to put yourself in a known flight attitude, in this case a spin, and hope you have enough distance when you break out left to recover the aircraft. Dangerous, but kinda smart.