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Pass/Fail Lesson On Density Altitude

Rocketman

Rockets Up
Contributor
I'll let those of you with a lot more experience than me comment if you like. See the text on Live Leak and watch about the last 2 min or so of the vid taken from a VHS video camcorder atop the instrument panel .

Jist is L-19, high density altitude, steep turn and stall. Pilot and pax dead.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=316_1249535759
 

Beans

*1. Loins... GIRD
pilot
Is the pilot saying "Damn, handle right!" at the end? It's obvious from that comment and the flying he had no idea how to recover from a stall.
 

BACONATOR

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Wow. You can even hear the stall horn go off and come back on as he unloads and reloads the aircraft in the descending turn. Seems so obvious to us armchair-critics, but stall recovery at low-altitude during high density-altitudes needs to be AUTOMATIC. Nose down, full power, level the wings, and center the ball could have prevented this. Obviously pre-flight planning could have prevented the situation in the first place removing the necessity for a stall recovery.
 

C420sailor

Former Rhino Bro
pilot
That snap roll at the end was pretty heinous. Probably would have been somewhat survivable if that hadn't happened.
 

Rocketman

Rockets Up
Contributor
That snap roll at the end was pretty heinous. Probably would have been somewhat survivable if that hadn't happened.

Watch it again and see if you think that happened because a wing hit a tree? I was thinking it might have been the start of an over the top spin entry but I'm not sure.

Nope I watched it again too. Over the top spin entry it is.....
 

S3b_viking

New Member
Having worked at an airport at 7500' MSL I witnessed one accident, witnessed one near accident, and have had a friend die due to density altitude. Luckily with the accident everyone walked away and the plane did happen to fly again because the pilot landed gear up in a field just north of the airfield. All three took off in the middle of summer, in the middle of the day, overloaded. Despite all the foot stomping that people do, at least a couple accidents happen a year in CO due to density altitude. Just because the service ceiling is 14,500' doesn't mean you'll ever see 14,500'. Hopefully this video might become a staple of several mountain courses to teach people the painful lessons of mountain flying. It can be very rewarding and a lot of fun, but you must always be mindful of the mountians. (Steps down from soap box)
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
And these lessons apply doubly so to helos.

The DA maneuvering restrictions in NATOPS for the 60B are there for a REASON.
 

NozeMan

Are you threatening me?
pilot
Super Moderator
And these lessons apply doubly so to helos.

The DA maneuvering restrictions in NATOPS for the 60B are there for a REASON.

Amen. The hot days in Fallon have definitely driven that point home. You really have to be careful with a loaded down Hotel, helos obvioulsy don't like high DA/PA.
 

C420sailor

Former Rhino Bro
pilot
Excuse my weak RW knowledge, but what exactly happens in a helo at high altitude? Assuming the air is thin enough to prevent overtorque, can you just keep putting the collective on until you get a rotor stall?
 

NozeMan

Are you threatening me?
pilot
Super Moderator
Excuse my weak RW knowledge, but what exactly happens in a helo at high altitude? Assuming the air is thin enough to prevent overtorque, can you just keep putting the collective on until you get a rotor stall?

You are very power limited at high altitude. Yes, the air is much thinner....less to run the engines and less for the rotor to grab on to.


For example, on a given day at sea level I can expect my engines to provide ~116, on a hot day in Fallon said engine may provide me with less than 90%torque. With a combat load, you can barely hover in ground effect and you are unable to hover out of ground effect. Oh, and by the way you arent single engine capable unless you drop a lot of weight very quickly. Not a whole lot of time to do that down low.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
Excuse my weak RW knowledge, but what exactly happens in a helo at high altitude? Assuming the air is thin enough to prevent overtorque, can you just keep putting the collective on until you get a rotor stall?

Depends which thing limits you. Don't automatically think of the air as "thin enough to prevent overtorque" although under specific conditions that is possible. The higher you go the more torque the rotor needs provide the same amount of lift and the engine does what it can in rarefied air to meet that demand, but generally speaking...

-Your engine might hit a temperature limit- TOT/TGT/ITT/T4.5; some fuel controls automatically "top" to prevent exceeding this and some don't (you can keep on pulling, go right through it, and torch your engine). This tends to happen at hot-high-heavy ambient conditions.

-You might hit a torque limit (varies between different aircraft by whatever critical component most often in the main transmission) but I don't think I've ever heard of automatic torque limiting (except the H-60 autopilot in certain modes, but that is not part of the engine fuel control). This tends to happen high-heavy hot or cold ambient air. Also one way to think of a torque limit in your day-to-day flying and your reputation with maintenance and the front office as vaguely like an airframe G-limit. :D

-Your engine can hit max Ng/N1; some fuel controls "top" this one too.

-You can pull so much pitch that the blades hit critical AoA and stall but the engine and transmission are still within torque and temperature limits. The blades don't usually stall evenly as they go around and around which can be very "exciting" as a pilot (understatement). This tends to be more likely not only at hot-high-heavy but at high speeds or aggressive maneuvering. It is unheard of in a hover.

-You could possibly hit the control stops but this varies between designs.

Ground effect and just a bit of airspeed (like 10-20ish knots depending on design) help very noticeably. Most helicopters also have a very pronounced "bucket airspeed" typically from 40-70ish knots where power required is about half of what it takes to hover or go max blast. Service ceiling is normally higher than hover-in-ground-effect (HIGE) ceiling. HIGE is always higher than hover-out-of-ground-effect (HOGE) ceiling.


Hope that makes sense in a helo aero for dummies sort of way.
 

Pilot123

Member
pilot
I had my private before joining and I have to say I think that the civilian stall training was worthless compared to what we get in flight school. Seems like the emphasis on the civilian side is on stall recovery at altitude and just as an airwork drilll. It was never stressed to me the importance of being able to recover a low altitude or in the pattern.
 
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