PAR approaches?

[HokiePilot]

No kidding. The rumor in the Harrier community is that they are working to get our GPS FAA-certified. The only issue with that is that since it is a tactical system, it doesn't have any real stored point database that is easily accessible should they steer you to a specific fix you weren't planning on. A minor point, but something that could be annoying.

That is one of the real kickers to getting a GPS certified. In order for a GPS to be FAA certified, it must have a non-user-editable point database. Then for an approach, a user must be able to select an approach and then all of the points on that approach to come up. Users may not key in the individual names of the points and then fly the approach. This database further needs a QA system. For example, Jepessen publishes updates for their GPS database every month and then issues NOTAMs for any errors. While it is easy enough to get the gps fix locations and type them into FalconView, it is not legal. (The army has actually gotten special permission for the FAA to fly emergency gps approaches in Iraq, etc. The NOTAM for this is published for airport ATTA. Don't ask me why the Army needs FAA permission for operations in Iraq.)

The other stumbling block is that the receiver needs to include RAIM (Receiver Autonomous Integrity Monitoring). This basically calculates expected error continuously and alerts the user if it exceeds a certain amount. It also predicts the error for the final approach segment and informs the user if it will be acceptable (i.e. the approach going Active). This should be able to be solved by just updating the GPS/aircraft system software.

I am not saying that it is not going to happen, I am just saying that it is not as easy as saying the the GPS is accurate. It will require some procedural changes. I hope it happens though. It will make everyones life easier.

Do you have any clue as to why NAVAIR would push for it on the Harrier first? It would seem to me easier to try it on some of the newer aircraft first and then push it to the older ones.

 

[jarhead]

.......

HarrierDude may be able to speak to it a bit more. 1) He's old, so he may have used it when it came out and 2) He may actually have a system or two in his current position.

1) Fuck you....

Note the grouchiness in his tone, an undeniable sign he's old.

As for topic of PAR's, i don't have anything else to add other than I'm a fan of ILS's over PAR's ... gives you more options for diverts in crappy wx, plus I'm a control freak.

S/F

 

[Harrier Dude]

Note the grouchiness in his tone, an undeniable sign he's old.

Well played..........



and Fuck you too, sonny.

 

[S.O.B.]

To the first part - I would have to strongly suspect operator error. I will be the first to say the common cockpit could and should be a hell of a lot better, but with 2 EGI's displaying outputs on 3 stations a Romeo crew should never not know where they are barring a serious compound electrical system malfunction or some sort of crew-based error.

To the second, $$ was the reason, not weight (though there would also be integration issues with the box and antenna).

I don't think it was a matter of not knowing where they were as much as trying to stay below clouds that ultimately meet mountains. I think they were avoiding going into the goo when there wasn't an approach to get out.

$$ huh. That was a bad call.

 

[Harrier Dude]

HarrierDude may be able to speak to it a bit more. ......... He may actually have a system or two in his current position.

Upon further review, I do NOT own any of these things. MACS-1 is supposed to. They say they don't have any, but might know where they can get their hands on one. It'll "be a big redass to set up and certify" (according to Puff), but they're looking into it.

What a piece of crap.

 

[squeeze]

I'm still not sure why they didn't work on the boat. The boat swears that their end is 4.0, which I am skeptical about at best. It's not like the boat hasn't lied to me before.

Then again, we had a lot of AWLS 2 BIT codes. Our Avi chief, who used to teach the AWLS course at the schoolhouse and knows everything, said that H2.0 might not support it. Also, even if it did, there are no parts to fix the AWLS recievers in the jets. The system just basically died from neglect.

The BHR's SPN-41 is still broken. I was just there last week. Obviously, it's a priority system, since it's been broken since, oh, at least Jan '07 now.

This is not to imply that it even works in the jet. I would be willing to bet that testing the AWLS wasn't even on the OT plan for H2 through 5.

 

[Harrier Dude]

The question is,........how many coffee cups did you find?

 

[Flash]

You haven't lived until you have done a PAR approach into Misawa with a Japanese controller in a middle of a snowstorm, down to mins. The fun part was that the controller was barely intelligible at best, incomprehensible at worst........it was like he could barely speak English.

Between that and the dry suits, that det was fun.

 

[skidkid]

You haven't lived until you have done a PAR approach into Misawa with a Japanese controller in a middle of a snowstorm, down to mins. The fun part was that the controller was barely intelligible at best, incomprehensible at worst........it was like he could barely speak English.

Between that and the dry suits, that det was fun.

What you couldnt stay on gride srope and kept going reft of course? Go home Gaijin.

 

[A4sForever]

I got to this discussion late. My $20 worth:

PARs?? We used to kiss 'em, hold 'em, hug 'em, and call 'em our own. It was the bad WX name of the game.

I did have one guy try to drive me into the LSO cart at the end of RW 13 @ NUW ... came back from a zero-dark-thirty launch, low-level through the mountains from an Oregon coast-in, bombed the shit out of the target, and RTB'd to find the approach end of the field at ragged minimums ... so we shot 3 approaches w/ fog lying over the west half of the field and didn't break out on the first two -- it really pissed me off as the east half of the field was VFR and CAVU on each GCA downwind. On my 3rd and last PAR (fuel) the controller was calling me "on glideslope ... on centerline ... " and I broke out at min's lined up perfectly on the LSO cart at the side of the runway.

WAVE-OFF, GO-AROUND #3 ... "FUCK THIS !!! ... TOWER, I'M TURNING DOWNWIND FOR A VFR LANDING ON RUNWAY 31, IS THE GEAR IN BATTERY AND DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS ... ??"

I never did an ILS until I got my ATP when chasing the airlines ...

PARs today?? I'd still like 'em if we had the same trained cadre we used to have and the drivers were as proficient as they used to be in what WAS an art form w/ the interaction between a good controller and the driver ...

Otherwise ... I'll take an ILS. I've shot many of each to minimums and they both work. It's just all about timing and having everyone up to speed. Doing them with gomer controllers is a last ditch maneuver, however. I'd rather do an ADF ....

 

[SemperGumbi]

... fog lying over the west half of the field and didn't break out on the first two -- it really pissed me off as the east half of the field was VFR and CAVU on each GCA downwind.

At least some things never change.

 

[phrogdriver]

That is one of the real kickers to getting a GPS certified. In order for a GPS to be FAA certified, it must have a non-user-editable point database.

That's probably the biggest problem, from my limited knowledge of their inner workings. Making some points editable and others not is a pretty decent programming problem. The commercial GPSs tend not to be tactically friendly for this very reason. Can you imagine dialing in a grid or L/L as your do during a mission, like you dialed the GPS in a TH-57? Even the volume of data is a challenge. Those mission bricks don't hold squat. Plus, military GPSs are generally designed with very purpose-designed hardware and software, not "open-architecture," as is more common today.

 

[HuggyU2]

Have any of you ever had the "dirty PAR" from a gal Brit controller in Cyprus? Don't know if it's still done,.... but that's a memorable approach.

 

[Clux4]

What is a dirty PAR. Share your experience

 

[Pugs]

Have any of you ever had the "dirty PAR" from a gal Brit controller in Cyprus? Don't know if it's still done,.... but that's a memorable approach.

Does the final controller freq have a "900" in it?