Packin' heat

[squeeze]

Do you know what the Assault Weapon Ban is? It's completely cosmetic. My AR-15 doesn't have a flash hider or a bayonet lug. That's what was banned. It's NO DIFFERENT from a pre-ban, functionality wise. Same exact rifle. Why would you ban looks?

Not surprisingly, that same argument is used to keep the ban in place: If it's not a functionality issue, why do you need it? Sure it's a dumb ban that plays on emotion and not fact, but it satisfies a lot of the anti-gunners. And besides, my M4 clone has everything I need on it as is. The only nicety I can really see about it going away is the magazine limitation (bayonet lug...please, flash hider...get a muzzle brake it works just as well), and practically speaking, that's just for the range -- if you can't hit something with 10 shots, 12+ isn't going to help you (on the handgun side -- 30 rd mags for AR's are still dirt cheap).

 

[nittany03]

Not surprisingly, that same argument is used to keep the ban in place: If it's not a functionality issue, why do you need it?

Well, it's the principle of the thing to me. This country isn't based on what you NEED, it's based on what you WANT. My right to swing my fist is unlimited as long as it doesn't hit someone else's nose. If someone wants to own a real military rifle with bayonet and flash suppressor to plink tin cans or hunt deer with, more power to 'em. Punish those who commit crimes with guns, not people who don't hurt anybody.

 

[Fly Navy]

Not surprisingly, that same argument is used to keep the ban in place: If it's not a functionality issue, why do you need it? Sure it's a dumb ban that plays on emotion and not fact, but it satisfies a lot of the anti-gunners. And besides, my M4 clone has everything I need on it as is. The only nicety I can really see about it going away is the magazine limitation (bayonet lug...please, flash hider...get a muzzle brake it works just as well), and practically speaking, that's just for the range -- if you can't hit something with 10 shots, 12+ isn't going to help you (on the handgun side -- 30 rd mags for AR's are still dirt cheap).

SO WHY BAN IT? Do you not see the idiocy in that argument? This is not a need issue. It never has been. I'm not in the business of satisfying anti-gunners. Bayonet lug and flash hider are for... what's the word... I guess you'd say authenticity. It's a JUNK law, the kind of law that should never have made it through Congress. It's this kind of crap that infests our culture, be it idiot gun bans, lawsuits against fast food, etc. Completely emotional bullsh!t. It has had almost zero effect on so called "gun crime". Kill the ban.

Why should a pistol designed for 15 rounds be limited to 10? Is 15 that much more scary? And put your money where your mouth is. Shot accuracy goes down 3 fold or more when adrenaline and fear are put in the mix. Of course, that demonstrates the benefits of training. Better you shoot normally, better you will in a nasty situation.

Why don't we just put speed governors on all the cars. I mean seriously, you're going to get there at 55 MPH.

You're right though, AR-15 mags are damn cheap. I love USGI surplus!

Virginia has the right idea. They have pretty open gun laws, they don't punish the law abiding citizen for the evil of the few. What they DO do though, is increase your jail sentence by a TON if you commit a felony with a firearm. It's working.

Outlaw guns, and only outlaws will have guns. Look at England. PERFECT example of that. A bad guy with a outlawed gun comes into your home there, you shoot him with your outlawed handgun, he wins a civil suit against you, and you go to jail. Tell me if that makes sense?

 

[squeeze]

Well, if you hadn't noticed, politicians aren't in the business are satisfying just you. Emotion beats out common sense all the time in national policy, and when you have to balance common sense (if any politicians even possess it) with the wishes of your constituents, common sense rarely seems the victor. Sure, I don't think it should have passed in the first place, but I've said it before and I'll say it again -- the only people who have been truly vocal about it's sundown are those in favor of it going away. If they would just shut up, chances are it would pass on quietly. That is, if Pres Bush decides to not champion its renewal like he said he would.

Look, I just try to get people to appreciate both sides of an issue before hauling off and stating their opinion or discounting anothers. Guess it's one of those things I picked up at a pretty liberal school. Definately a good thing IMO.

 

[VetteMuscle427]

Look at England. PERFECT example of that. A bad guy with a outlawed gun comes into your home there, you shoot him with your outlawed handgun, he wins a civil suit against you, and you go to jail. Tell me if that makes sense?

I heard lots of people in England are now using harpoon guns < for whale hunting > for home defense....

 

[Fly Navy]

Well, if you hadn't noticed, politicians aren't in the business are satisfying just you. Emotion beats out common sense all the time in national policy, and when you have to balance common sense (if any politicians even possess it) with the wishes of your constituents, common sense rarely seems the victor. Sure, I don't think it should have passed in the first place, but I've said it before and I'll say it again -- the only people who have been truly vocal about it's sundown are those in favor of it going away. If they would just shut up, chances are it would pass on quietly. That is, if Pres Bush decides to not champion its renewal like he said he would.

Interesting point about shutting up and just letting it die. There is some truth to that idea. But at the same time, the likes of Feinstien and Brady are beating their drums to get it renewed. It's a strange balance.

Look, I just try to get people to appreciate both sides of an issue before hauling off and stating their opinion or discounting anothers. Guess it's one of those things I picked up at a pretty liberal school. Definately a good thing IMO.

Honestly not sure what you mean by this. I've been researching and studying this issue for a few years now. I know where I stand.

 

[jg5343]

That Sig226 Navy model is nice!

http://www.sigarms.com/products/classicfullsize-models.asp?product_id=198#

Guys at the teams rarely carry the SIG. On our deployment, I think one guy used the SIG and everyone else in the platoon brought the HK .45. I loved it so much I bought one. We had 12 round mags (please don't call them clips, that guy with the M1 Garand will tell you what a clip is, pistols have magazines) and I don't think the 2 rounds makes much of a difference. The SIGs were in the armory for us to use, but I have to say they collected a lot of dust. Not that they were bad weapons, but the HK was just way more solid and allowed for the addition of a suppressor.

As far as stopping power goes, speed is everything and the .45 is big and slow. Shot placement does make up for the lack of stopping power with the 9mm, but if I hit someone in the leg I am hoping that the bullet knocks that leg out from under him, not go through it.

 

[VetteMuscle427]

Guys at the teams rarely carry the SIG. On our deployment, I think one guy used the SIG and everyone else in the platoon brought the HK .45. I loved it so much I bought one. We had 12 round mags (please don't call them clips, that guy with the M1 Garand will tell you what a clip is, pistols have magazines) and I don't think the 2 rounds makes much of a difference. The SIGs were in the armory for us to use, but I have to say they collected a lot of dust. Not that they were bad weapons, but the HK was just way more solid and allowed for the addition of a suppressor.

I'm taking it you mean the H&K USP?

 

[jg5343]

Yes the Hk .45 USP. Sorry, we all call it the MK 23. Is there a similar one that I could be confusing everyone with?

 

[Fly Navy]

Guys at the teams rarely carry the SIG. On our deployment, I think one guy used the SIG and everyone else in the platoon brought the HK .45. I loved it so much I bought one. We had 12 round mags (please don't call them clips, that guy with the M1 Garand will tell you what a clip is, pistols have magazines) and I don't think the 2 rounds makes much of a difference. The SIGs were in the armory for us to use, but I have to say they collected a lot of dust. Not that they were bad weapons, but the HK was just way more solid and allowed for the addition of a suppressor.

Ooooooooh boy. First of all, I've seen the exact opposite. The H&K Mk23 system is HUGE. It was designed as an offensive pistol system (if such a thing REALLY exists). What I've seen and been told is that the teams prefer the SIG due to the smaller size and much easier handle. Probably varies per team/SEAL though.

As far as stopping power goes, speed is everything and the .45 is big and slow. Shot placement does make up for the lack of stopping power with the 9mm, but if I hit someone in the leg I am hoping that the bullet knocks that leg out from under him, not go through it.

No offense dude, but retake your physics class required for commissioning. The .45 isn't going to be knocking anything out of the way. ANy such reaction is a response from the human body and could happen with any projectile. It's the same idea of shotgun blasts blowing people off their feet in movies. Physically impossible with the forces involved.

Thank god you use the term magazine. You made me happy.

 

[jg5343]

Ooooooooh boy. First of all, I've seen the exact opposite. The H&K Mk23 system is HUGE. It was designed as an offensive pistol system (if such a thing REALLY exists). What I've seen and been told is that the teams prefer the SIG due to the smaller size and much easier handle. Probably varies per team/SEAL though.



No offense dude, but retake your physics class required for commissioning. The .45 isn't going to be knocking anything out of the way. ANy such reaction is a response from the human body and could happen with any projectile. It's the same idea of shotgun blasts blowing people off their feet in movies. Physically impossible with the forces involved.

Thank god you use the term magazine. You made me happy.

I know the Mk23 system is huge, but I feel it is easier to shoot and handle. I am not saying the SIG is junk, and that they are not carried at all by team members. This is a 100% personal prefernce thing. I am just saying that not many people at SDVT-2 in TUC during the summer of '99 cruise carried them. I have no chioce but to believe that other platoons were the exact opposite and that maybe we were all f'd up and no one carries the mk23. Oooooooooooh boy.

As far as the physics goes, I know damn well that a 165 grn bullet traveling at 1000-1500 fps does NOT have the momentum to knock a man down. It is the equivilent of dropping a 10 lbs weight on your chest from like 2 inches or so. If it had enough force to knock a man down, then the shooter would be knocked down too. The 'bigger hole' effect just makes me smile a little more. I am not a dumb ass sorry I sounded like one.

 

[Fly Navy]

I know the Mk23 system is huge, but I feel it is easier to shoot and handle. I am not saying the SIG is junk, and that they are not carried at all by team members. This is a 100% personal prefernce thing. I am just saying that not many people at SDVT-2 in TUC during the summer of '99 cruise carried them. I have no chioce but to believe that other platoons were the exact opposite and that maybe we were all f'd up and no one carries the mk23. Oooooooooooh boy.

I bet it is easier to shoot. All that weight must reduce recoil quite a bit. I'd love to get my hands on one. Did you ever see any guys carry revolvers? I've heard they can be seen from time to time.

As far as the physics goes, I know damn well that a 165 grn bullet traveling at 1000-1500 fps does NOT have the momentum to knock a man down. It is the equivilent of dropping a 10 lbs weight on your chest from like 2 inches or so. If it had enough force to knock a man down, then the shooter would be knocked down too. The 'bigger hole' effect just makes me smile a little more. I am not a dumb ass sorry I sounded like one.

Hey, sorry if I came off pissy. Just a bit tired today, didn't mean it. Bigger holes can certainly be nice, and considering most of the time you're restricted to FMJ in the military, I'd want the .45. But if I had the option of using JHP, I'd probably go 9mm, for capacity, and body armor penetration. Less frontal area equals better soft armor penetration, not to mention more speed.

 

[feddoc]

Stopping power is a falacy. In the great scheme of things, most handgun cartridges are pitifully weak. It's SHOT PLACEMENT that does the job. That being said, shoot what you are comfortable with. I have both those cartridges, and I would carry a 9mm over the .40. Why? Because I can shoot the 9mm more accurately and faster than I can the .40. The reality of it is, amongst 9mm, .40, and .45, a good hollowpoint in each of them offers about equal performance. If that doesn't help matters, then just buy a SIG in .40 and get a 9mm drop-in barrel. Then you have the best of both worlds!!!

Stopping power is not a fallacy. Shot placement is certainly important, but, if you do not have proper penetration of the slug, you have not stopped the attack.

My carry weapon is either a Kimber Polymer Target .45 or a Baby Eagle .40

Is Gulf Breeze Pistol Parlor still open? I used to hang out there in the early 90's.

 

[Fly Navy]

Stopping power is not a fallacy. Shot placement is certainly important, but, if you do not have proper penetration of the slug, you have not stopped the attack.

My carry weapon is either a Kimber Polymer Target .45 or a Baby Eagle .40

Is Gulf Breeze Pistol Parlor still open? I used to hang out there in the early 90's.

Stopping power is a fallacy when it comes to nearly equal rounds, such as 9mm, .45, and .40. They are all about equal when it comes to good quality JHPs. People tend to use the term as an extension of hollywood, i.e. a .45 to the arm will knock a guy down because it has more stopping power. It's total crap. Now if you compare say a .40 to a .22, well then yeah, it makes more sense to talk about stopping power.

Not sure if the Pistol Parlor is still open. I've done my shopping at Mike's on Route 29. Overpriced as heck though.

 

[FlyingDoc]

Has anyone seen the conversion kits for a 1911 .45 to be turned into a .22? How much do those usually run?

What other guns are nice?