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P3 RAG, FAM 4, take two...

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The Grass is Greener!
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Training is happening at a pretty fast pace now that ground school and CPTs are a distant memory. Have managed to finish SIMS 1 through 5, and FAM 1 through 4, though unfortunately on the last flight we were unable to complete all the pattern work that we were supposed to. And had to have FAM 4 rescheduled for today.

As with other phases of training, some things just don't change. The brief, followed by the preflight, then the actual flight, and the ensuing debrief remain the same. The flights are a little bit longer now than in Advanced, with 5 hour flights. A 0500 brief, for a 0530 preflight, for a 0700/0730 takeoff, return by 1230 to refuel the plane for the next wave of afternoon flights at 1230. As in Advanced, you are teamed up with another student pilot, and you two split the flight. The first guy does the engine starts, takeoff, and highwork. Swap seats, finish the highwork, then into the pattern. Swap seats and the other student finishes their pattern work and takes you home.

It is good to see other people handle problems, and scenarios that instructors throw at you. You can sit back and not have to worry about flying the plane (ie get back that other 95% of your brain that you lose when you sit down in that pilot's seat!). The P3 flight station is huge (they say it will seem smaller with time), and you get to sit behind the pilot's seat on the left hand side, and you get a great view of the "action". Able to sit back and watch the other guy or the instructor go through the approaches, or patternwork, and get a better idea of what is going on, or to develop better technique. In the T44 you sat back further and could hardly see anything, and were primarily there as a lookout in the pattern, and to back up on comms and count how many and of what type of landings you had done.

The view is just plain amazing from the cockpit, with excellent visibility forward and to either side, in fact it feels to me like I am on the tip of this big plane hurtling through the air. For some reason I thought it would be much worse, but am glad that it has turned out contrary. The overwhelming feeling of all the gauges, lights, dials and switches (need to post a picture of the flight station, and as Matt can attest since I showed him a P3 when he was down during his CQs) has receded, and am really beginning to feel comfortable as things are starting to come together. Scan is developing, but probably still needs some work, but I am no longer searching for a particular gauge or switch, so that is a step in the right direction!

The briefs are just reviewing the material, with random questions from the instructor to probe your knowledge. And focus on the new events for each flight. Also time to clear up any questions you might have. There is plenty of time during to preflight and during the flight for the instructor to "hammer" you, and find out your knowledge or lack thereof. Everything here is under the mantra of "lights, limits, procedures and power sources"! If a light goes off, you have to know the procedure to handle it. Everything from FLAP ASYM light to RACK OVERHEAT light, and the more recognizable FUEL PRESS, OIL HOT or the never changing CHIPS light! And of course many more. You spit out the procedure, but then you have to also step through your systems knowledge on what actually caused the light, yikes! And fly the plane?!?!

Limits as always, from Primary on, are of prime importance to both you and the IP. But take the number of limits associated with the T34 and T44, multiply by 10, and then you are about in the ballpark with numbers associated with the P3! You are starting the #4 engine, it is up an running normally, and you get the inevitable questions, "What is your RPM limitation in LOW RPM? The TIT? What is your MAX TIT on engine Start?", you get the picture. You are walking around on preflight, "What speed can I extend these landing lights at? What is the capacity of the hydraulic accumulator? ... with the gear up?". Somehow all the studying pays off, and the numbers aren't running together, but you just got to keep going over them or they will just fade on out of memory!

From there you go on to procedures, and I think Matt and I have stressed the importance of not paying lip service to them, and getting them memorized "cold", notes/warnings and cautions too! While the asterick required memory items aren't as prevalent, and you can use NATOPs to handle a malfunction, you still have to be able to step through the procedures on memory. In just starting the engine alone there are 24 different possible malfunctions that you have to contend with. Today I had to use ground air (huffer) since we did not have an Auxilliary Power Unit (APU), to start the #2 engine. Went to start #2, and at 16% RPM we only had 22PSI, beneath the 25PSI required to start the engine. Stepped through the procedures, set up an isolated start on the #1, and bam, she started fine. It seems that most of the stuff I have been getting keep on being "real world" actual problems.

Day before, we had a bad ignition relay, and the #1 dumped fuel out the bottom of the engine through manifold drain valve... hmm... waited an hour and a half to get that one fixed. Of course the IP wants you to troubleshoot and step through your knowledge to get to that answer. Kind of sad actually when you are sitting there, and the flight engineer and the IP both know exactly what is going on through experience and time in aircraft, and you are still in the counting on fingers and toes stage stepping through "circuit breaker, bus, component" to figure out what in the hell just happened!

Finally you get to Power Sources, the bane of every student. Not only do you have to know the power source (AC) for the piece of equipment, but also the controlling power source (DC). Just call me highlighter boy, I have my fold out of the flight station highlighted in a rainbow of colors, for each gauge and switch, with each bus having its own color. In fact I have almost answered at times, "Power source for the landing lights? Ah, that is purple, whoops, monitorable essential AC, or MEAC for short!", god that is pitiful isn't it? But hey it works. And the worst are those systems that have back up power, so you have to know that also.

It all boils down to either you know it, or you don't and you are just guessing. Wish I had a video camera of me in the SIM or cockpit, it must be plain as day to the IP when I know my stuff and I yell it out across the flight station, "THAT WOULD BE START DC!", but when I don't or am not as sure, inaudibly ".. bus a???". You get the picture, thankfully that hasn't been happening, but when it does, probably like a drop of blood in a shark tank! Probably be a hoot one day when I am finally an IP and get to be on the dishing out end...

Preflights have been pretty comprehensive, and great in expanding and working on retaining that systems knowlege. Same stuff that you start working on in Primary, you and the IP walking around the plane, and the good old pointing game begins. Managed to hold my own today, thankfully a lot of stuff on the P3 is placarded. IP pointed to a black cylinder inside the wing near the flaps, "whats that?", "oh the flap brake!", easy day! Then the inevitable follow up, "what powers it?", good lord... "cold fusion?" "main DC smartass"... nah I didn't say that, though I did think it.

Last flight we progressed to three engine pattern work and landings. I was given an engine fire on the #4 engine on downwind in the pattern, stepped through the procedures and secured the engine. Add power, maintain 160 kias, trim the ball! Took a turn at pattern altitude to get all our briefs done (we have a brief for everything from starting engines, takeoff, single generator, loiter brief, you name it, keeps the aircrew coordination going, so everyone is on the same page!), and next thing I know I am at the 180 (actually abeam the point of landing and dropping the gear) pulling power back, passing the 180 and damn if the numbers don't work for 3 engines the same as 4! Rolling through the 90 at 2/3rds pattern altitude, on speed, hit the groove and coming in on final. Just as you start coming in, bam the instructor calls "WAVEOFF!" and you are doing a 3 engine waveoff for the first time. Waveoff, 3500 SHP, raising the dead engine 5 degrees, positive rate of climb as she jumps back into the air, get land flaps up to approach flaps, maintaining heading and centerline over the field, flaps are at approach get that gear up, and climbing back to pattern altitude, looking for interval, and pulling power back to 1500 shp on the 3 engines so you don't scorch past 160. Whew, but she can wave off with no problems with 3 engines.

Took her around again, nailing centerline, power, nose, power, nose, touchdown, closing out the power, burying the dead engine with right aileron and yoke down, pulling power over the ramp into the ground range, instructor takes 4 from me, and I am reversing with 1, 2 and 3. Countering asymmetric thrust from 1 and 2 with right rudder, keep on centerline! Air speed decreasing and losing rudder authority, easing off on reverse of #1 to keep centerline. Beneath 50 and I am on nose wheel steering, and I have a 3 engine landing to a full stop. Taxi clear of the active and step through my checklists.

When we were in the MOA, at 10k, we were giving a fire of unknown origin scenario. Aft reported in with smoke and fumes, we alerted the crew, activated the fire bill, and shut off the cabin exhaust fan, FOUO checklist please! Next thing I am handing over controls to the IP, and putting on my smoke mask, gotta love realistic training! By now I know to get the O2 "on" before putting it on, don't make that mistake in Primary, or you will be sucking on a whole lot of nothing, trust me! ICS all switched over, headset back on, and bam, I am back to flying. Well, the whole damn world just about closes in around you. Not to used to flying like that, probably would be much easier for Matt and other jet types, but haven't worn a helmet or mask since Intermediate! The student flight engineer and I are sucking rubber, and the IP, FE IP and my fellow Onwing are sitting back enjoying the show as we step through the checklist to first find the source of the fire, figure out how to secure power to it, get the fumes out of the cockpit, and then restore electrical power. I was given a #1 run around relay fire, that I had to discern from the simulated report, "the second spidery looking thing in the main load center on the back wall is on fire sir". Luckily that jumped right out to me, but for the life of me I couldn't remeber how to secure it. Had the FE break open the electrical diagram, and figured out the two circuit breakers that needed to be pulled. Really good training, and definitely an eye opener and incentive to keep on top of that systems knowledge.

We did some pattern work (4 touch and goes) at Gainesville Regional airport in Florida, woohoo, go Gators! And then headed back to NAS Jax as the sun set. One of those great moments where you are really happy to be doing what you are doing. The sun is going down, the stars are coming out, and you enjoy the moment zipping along. Went to the GCA pattern, and shot multiple PARs to runway 27. We were coming in on final when a pair of S3s in formation turned back to the east as they were vectored over us. Man, that was awesome, and made my whole flight right there. Looking through the overhead windshield, we were almost so close you could touch them. Good stuff. Lots of traffic out and about, two other P3s, a couple helos, and of course the S3s doing their thing. All of us going about our stuff as tower, approach and GCA did their thing. All pretty amazing when you think about it. Finished and our stuff and called it a night.

Finally, get to todays flight, supposed to finish the pattern work that we weren't able to complete. Brief, preflight, same plane as the night before, same plane with no stinking APU, so have to use external power cart and the huffer. Go through my brief again, we have to start #2, remove the power cart and huffer, we will be single generator, right side clear, start #3 (no longer single generator) and #4, then back to #1. Get all our stuff done, get clearance, permission to taxi, and head to the hold short. Get there, and you know what? #4 engine oil gauge is reading erratically, damn! Swap gauges, problem won't go away, bad transmitter in the oil tank. Turn around and go back to the line. Can't get it fixed for us. And my flight is cancelled. In a way this is very discouraging, since this is the 3rd flight I have had either cut short or cancelled due to mech problems, but am getting a wealth of knowledge on how to deal with these situations. "Best" so far was a low power on the #2 engine last week on take off roll, "ABORT!", spent 8 hours of preflight (from 0500 brief to 1245 when we called it quits), as we helped mainenance to isolate the problem.

All in all, the steep learning curve of ground school is behind me, but still have a ways to go to gain experience and knowledge, not to mention maintaining and expanding my systems knowledge. Good stuff. Also should mention, that the atmosphere is a lot more relaxed. In Primary you have to prove yourself, and you are just another student. That changes in Advanced (at least in the Prop pipeline) things get a little more casual. Till finally here you are a Winged Naval Aviator, and are treated as such, still got to know your shit, but definitely more laid back, and instead of a "grilling session" you get into more of a discussion mode. Whew, too long of a post, but for once am not dragging by the end of the day. Got another flight tomorrow, better get back to studying those "lights, limit, procedures and power sources"!
 

ASUPilot

Registered User
John,

That was a great post! So much information! I have a request...could you possibly supply us with a picture of the P-3 flight deck? Thanks.

ASUPilot
 

webmaster

The Grass is Greener!
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Will try and get a picture of the flight station, and some other pics around the squadron, and post them.
 

webmaster

The Grass is Greener!
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
FLASH from the past....

Wow... picklesuit pointed this old thread of mine. Completely surreal to read my thoughts as a CAT I, and fast forward 8 years later.

Probably be a hoot one day when I am finally an IP and get to be on the dishing out end...
:D
 

picklesuit

Dirty Hinge
pilot
Contributor
Cockpit Picture

P-3C%20Cockpit%20on%20Patrol%20-%20Sigonella.jpg


For those who may still be wondering:D
Awesome look into the FRS...
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
In the E-2, we sit close enough that you can actually beat the 2P.. Looks like in P3s you have to get the FE to do that for you.
161097606XiBjxS_ph.jpg
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
3P while a technical qual I have though of as kind of a misnomer, as we don't normally carry a third pilot.

PQM would probably be more appropriate.

Now go back to your scope tube monkey!
 

PropStop

Kool-Aid free since 2001.
pilot
Contributor
In the E-2, we sit close enough that you can actually beat the 2P.. Looks like in P3s you have to get the FE to do that for you.

That's correct (unless you have monkey arms). This is why it's good to have a good relationship with your FEs. Throwing stuff is frowned upon as it creates a FOD problem. Now, having a stick, that'd be handy.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Wow... picklesuit pointed this old thread of mine. Completely surreal to read my thoughts as a CAT I, and fast forward 8 years later.

:D

Yes, there was a time when AW was not a forum. John and Steve were bloggers before the term was coined. :D:D
 

H60Gunner

Registered User
Contributor
That's correct (unless you have monkey arms). This is why it's good to have a good relationship with your FEs. Throwing stuff is frowned upon as it creates a FOD problem. Now, having a stick, that'd be handy.

That's why FE's are issued a small stick upon graduation from the RAG, to FWAP pilots hands as they reach for the power levers...:D

I had an old FE who would challenge lurkers in the flight station by saying "I'll bet I can get my knife out faster than you can grab an e-handle"
 

Alpha_Echo_606

Does not play well with others!™
Contributor
P-3C%20Cockpit%20on%20Patrol%20-%20Sigonella.jpg


For those who may still be wondering:D
Awesome look into the FRS...
The cockpit looks even better with the new Electronic Flight Director System and Digital Fuel Quantity System. Almost from the 21 century, I just wish I had some pictures to post but that’s just not possible.
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
That's why FE's are issued a small stick upon graduation from the RAG, to FWAP pilots hands as they reach for the power levers...:D

I had an old FE who would challenge lurkers in the flight station by saying "I'll bet I can get my knife out faster than you can grab an e-handle"

Dumb question- Are P3/EP3 pilots never allowed to touch the throttles? Ever?
 
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