Orion Obsession; giving it up for the mighty P-3C

[xj220]

Shut up 3P, don't you have lunch to make?

Shut up Nav, don't you have an ops normal call to make?

 

[Gatordev]

Except someone has to find the sub first, and then put the dipping helo in contact..... And that is historically the kick-ass P-3. But I agreed, once the dipper is in contact, it's better than the mighty DICASS buoy.

However, those dippers used to regualrly piss us off. We'd find, localize, track and hand the sub off to a dipper. The dipper would ping for a few minutes, launch a simulated torp and then just pull out of his hover saying "See ya, we're RTB!" without so much as a last range & bearing to the sub. Then they'd blame us for the lost contact....."We had them when we came out of the hover at offsta. We have know idea why the P-3 lost him."

To be fair, my experience with P-3s is a time-late contact hand off (okay, maybe 75% of the time) and then the P-3 would have some sort random fire/gearbox malfunction and have to leave with us having to enter in a plethora of buoys into our system we didn't really know had any contact.

 

[HAL Pilot]

To be fair, my experience with P-3s is a time-late contact hand off (okay, maybe 75% of the time) and then the P-3 would have some sort random fire/gearbox malfunction

P-3s were newer in my time, not as many problems.

and have to leave with us having to enter in a plethora of buoys into our system we didn't really know had any contact.

Should have trained you acoustic operators better so they'd recognize the contact.....

To be fair, we did a hell of a lot more ASW, both real world and training, then anyone in a squadron today could possible imagine. I probably have 400+ hours tracking Soviet subs and an equal number on U.S. or allied boats. The helo and S-3 guys didn't get anywhere near the time we did then, and I bet the helo guys still get less than the P-3s.

Heck in one flight off Juan de Fuca, I tracked 5 different Victor III on the same flight out of Whidbey Island during a 9 hour onsta with inital contact on 3 of them. The 1984-88 was a great time for ASW.

 

[helolumpy]

To be fair, we did a hell of a lot more ASW, both real world and training, then anyone in a squadron today could possible imagine. I probably have 400+ hours tracking Soviet subs and an equal number on U.S. or allied boats. The helo and S-3 guys didn't get anywhere near the time we did then, and I bet the helo guys still get less than the P-3s.

The demise of ASW skills in the Navy is horrible. It is a core mission area of Naval Warfare and our leadership only pays it lip service (at best).
In the mid-90's my Dept Heads were all Cold Warriors who had countless hours working ASW problems with Soviet boats. I was taught ASW by experienced crews. By the time I started getting a crew of my own, I could not train them to the same standards since the Bear rarely swam and when he did, he didn't come near the Gulf.

Other than the guys in Japan, most helo folks are woefully unprepared for a real ASW problem.

While I can't state for fact that it's the same in the P-3 community, I would guess that due to higher priorities being put on other missions, the VP community is also underwhelming when it comes to ASW (just like the rotary wing ASW crews)

ASW was a great mission when you had contact, but when it didn't it was mind-numbingly boring!

Though on my last cruise, when we did get some on-top-time, the S-3's might come down from the tanker pattern to play. If you had an O-4 or O-5 in the cockpit, they'd come down and do some simulated torp drops. If it was an all JO crew (who never learned ASW) they had no idea what to do so, they wouldn't play.

 

[Flugelman]

Heck in one flight off Juan de Fuca, I tracked 5 different Victor III on the same flight out of Whidbey Island during a 9 hour onsta with inital contact on 3 of them. The 1984-88 was a great time for ASW.

Whidbey during the holidays was always a rodeo. Some old Foxtrot would show up around December 20th and we would fly on it until after New Years. Sucked to be the Ready squadron then...

 

[PropAddict]

Afterall a dipping sonar will always yield to the ASW prowess of the mighty DICASS buoy....

Not if I'm SAC!

Let the whirlybirds play and save our buoys for when the helo inevitably calls "bent dome" or "streamer" and we have to jump in to save the day again.

 

[Gatordev]

Should have trained you acoustic operators better so they'd recognize the contact.....

The far bigger problem is that with no link, one of the pilots had to enter in each buoy, one lat/long at a time. I always hoped for at least one buoy in contact so we could just enter that one and then put our own stuff in with our own plot.

To be fair, we did a hell of a lot more ASW, both real world and training, then anyone in a squadron today could possible imagine. I probably have 400+ hours tracking Soviet subs and an equal number on U.S. or allied boats. The helo and S-3 guys didn't get anywhere near the time we did then, and I bet the helo guys still get less than the P-3s.

Heck in one flight off Juan de Fuca, I tracked 5 different Victor III on the same flight out of Whidbey Island during a 9 hour onsta with inital contact on 3 of them. The 1984-88 was a great time for ASW.

Not arguing that ASW has atrophied, but as I've probably mentioned before, ASW is not lost. The Japan guys actually do a lot of on top time still. I'm guessing HI guys have less, but still get some time in, especially compared to the East Coast guys.

 

[HAL Pilot]

The far bigger problem is that with no link, one of the pilots had to enter in each buoy, one lat/long at a time. I always hoped for at least one buoy in contact so we could just enter that one and then put our own stuff in with our own plot.

We just randomly enterd the buoy on our scope and when the pilots marked on top of it, it would sync with our position. Easy.

 

[statesman]

Shut up 3P, don't you have lunch to make?

Quote from a PPC on the day I checked in as I was being introduced to the ward room:

PPC: "You can make fun of NFOs all you want."
2P: "Even though he is a brand new 3p?"
PPC: "I definitely think a new 3P is higher in the pecking order than an NFO. The order is PPC, 2P, 3P, TACCO, probably the FE, and then Nav"

 

[HAL Pilot]

We had a PPC like that in my first squadron. He eventually lost his crew because it seemed no matter who the NFOs on the crew were, it always did badly. It did fine when it had a guest PPC....

 

[PropStop]

We had a PPC like that in my first squadron. He eventually lost his crew because it seemed no matter who the NFOs on the crew were, it always did badly. It did fine when it had a guest PPC....

Sounds like someone trying to put an "I" in "team". Those pilots piss me off to no end. I've only met one or two, but they really made an impression.

 

[petewenman]

Just to follow up the earlier posting - my P-3 painting is now complete and with it's owners pending donation to the NNAM, Penscola

P

 

[IRfly]

We had a PPC like that in my first squadron. He eventually lost his crew because it seemed no matter who the NFOs on the crew were, it always did badly. It did fine when it had a guest PPC....

I had a 3P like that when I was an MC. His snobby little boat school ass got put in its place doublequick...