"Officer first, Aviator second," or other way around?

[Jaxs170]

Officer first? Aviator first? What makes you think they are not ONE in the same ... ???

This is what I was wondering myself, because we are both at all times, situations dictate which one must come to the surface and be dominant at any given moment. If a young sailor just lost his father and needs to get home and none of his enlisted bretheren is helping him, I really doubt he care how good of a pilot you are at that moment, only if you are going to get him home asap.

On the flip side, if you just lost an engine and are at min fuel on a nice minimuns (200 ft ceiling and 1/2 mile vis, high crosswinds and wet runway) day and have to land that plane on this pass, I really doubt the guys in the back care too much how good of an officer you are at that moment, only if you are going to be able to put the plane on the deck so they can go see their kids.

We are what we are folks, it's part of the reason why naval aviatiors are able to get the upper management jobs as well as the airline jobs on the outside, it's why no other navy in the world dares challenge us, it's the reason the stanger at Starbucks walks up to you and thanks you while you are waiting for your order (and makes the visit there worthwhile when the kid behind the counter hands you something with steam coming off of it when you ordered an iced beverage).

 

[TurbosaurusRex]

When you couple Naval Aviator with Naval Officer, you eliminate that sub-set of Naval Aviators that are Marine Corps Officers? Dependent, but you would sway the argument, as you certainly know the Marine Corps Officer would vote.

OH MY LORD!

You've got to be kidding me... all you Marines in the room... what kind of wings are you/will you be wearing? Right, NAVY wings. A4s got it right. You ARE Naval Aviators.

I know we squids like to have it out with our jarheads. It's an ongoing Sibling rivalry... but when it comes down to it... we in the Navy are really proud of our little sisters.

As for the NFO Aviator thing. They go through API... through Primary... they'll be right there with me, telling me where to go... Of course they're AVIATORS... not only that... but FELLOW Aviators.

But what does it matter anyway? They are fellow OFFICERS first.

 

[A4sForever]

OH MY LORD!
.......I know we squids like to have it out with our jarheads. It's an ongoing Sibling rivalry... but when it comes down to it...

Love those Marines !!! ... I was heading for Leatherneck grunt-land and I'd even pulled the trigger on the dotted line as my eyes were not of Aviator quality. Then I cut back on the "studying" and the peepers got "better" --- and the siren song of the sea was still calling me ........ GO NAVY.

How's that for my contribution to the discussion of: "What will I ever do if I can't fly, Mommy ?? "

We used to have to keep the Marines flying over the lunch hour or they would forget how to .... fly ..... especially if they were Aggies. For those "overthinkers" here .... l jest, of course. When I was flying Adversary, the best fights were ALWAYS given and taken with the Marine Reserve F-4 squadron @ NAS DALLAS. Marine Reserve F-4's .... now who could know??? And that was during the advent of those pretty-boy face-men driving their shiny new F-16's, F-18's, F-15's, .... and I would prefer not to talk about those two Montana ANG F-106 drivers (would that be "MANG"??) who almost whipped my ass --- and just before Happy Hour at Tyndall, too .....

(*edit *if this constitutes a thread-jack, contact my lawyer ..... *)

 

[A4sForever]

f............ A4s, if you hadn't noticed, his ego is so big it comes through in his bold text .....and we love him ........ It is either that, or he needs to update his reading glasses perscription, but I will go for the former. John

And I love you-all, too ..... :bunny_125

Humble type-font now follows .... as I want you all to get up real close to your computer screens and not be afraid. There has been a lot of hurtful comments directed my way over the past 5-6 months I have been extant on this site ... very hurtful and demeaning comments :icon_cryi . Very hurtful. Very demeaning. But that seems to be my lot in life .... *sigh* .... and my response??? Now sit back ....


I just keep giving, and giving, and giving ..... !!! ...... but that's just me. Now sit a tad bit closer .....


Actually ..... it is a little of both. Ego and eyes. Eyes and ego. The classic, timeless battle. And ACTUALLY .... there is some pretty good stuff on this thread (mine and Steve Wilkins excluded, of course) ... and I've NEVER been accused of being a "type A" personality --- it's usually a "type AAA" . Blood type "A" perhaps ....


Web-san .... at the risk of appearing overly eager to kiss in the general direction of your buttocks .... Well said; well thought out. No wonder you rub shoulders with Admirals on a frequent and regular basis ..... and you also have way too much time on your hands. Go have another Kirin or Pink Foo-Foo drink or something ....

I nominate this thread for "Best" thread; thread .... *thread*.

 

[nfo2b]

A4s--when you say "type AAA," are you talking about the batteries in your hearing aide?

web--Those two posts I linked to contained the disdainful verbiage against the "Officer first..." maxim that started this post. And I'm not bashing those guys, I don't even know them. I just wanted to see how many other A(a)viators felt this way. I quote:

What I'm saying is dont bow down to some guys that say your an officer first and a pilot second. Personally for me, if I wasnt flying, I wouldnt have come back in to the Navy. For me its flying first and everything else is gravy.

and

That's a good point. Anyone who tells you that, is to some degree, full of crap. When your department head can say to you "Can this wait? I have to brief in a few minutes" he's clearly an aviator first, with his ground job coming in second.

Again, not bashing them, just picking brains. Oh, and for your reference:

opportunistic: adjective exploiting chances offered by immediate circumstances without reference to a general plan or moral principle

Like I said, perhaps a bit harsh choice of words, but it succinctly expressed the immediate impression I got. I'll try to use smaller words from now on...
As for the "Officer first..." thing. I'm not in community yet, or even commissioned yet (c'mon December!!!), so I can't really speak from first hand experience there. But I'm smart enough to know that there are times when the hats are distinctly separate, and you must choose when to wear each one. So it boils down to a matter of prioritization and proper judgement. This is the crux of this argument. Which one do you feel is, on the whole, more important? Why did you take your Oath? What did the Oath mean to you? Do you know when to use your piss-cutter, and when to take off the helmet? And what would your response be if NAMI told you you were grounded? Like I said, even though I'm not even commissioned yet, I've already know the answers to these questions, for my career at least.
Nuff sed.

 

[Brett327]

Naval Officers like Steve are going to be covering our ass as he sits as TAO on his Aegis, KMAC in his E2 are watching us going in country, A4s/Jarhead and the rest are dropping warheads on foreheads getting the job done, while Zab and I are protecting the Carrier or helping the grunts on the ground (as for Bunk, well, I guess he is getting the mail, jk)...

Feeling left out No room for EW in your little club?

Brett

 

[Goober]

Feeling left out No room for EW in your little club?

Brett

Oh whaddaya want? Evidently kmac's running strike control and I'm hauling the mail now...

By its own virtue, I'll add that mail is waaay more important than strikes anyday (it's true)

 

[Brett327]

Oh whaddaya want? Evidently kmac's running strike control

Kmac's still too busy staring at that cheerleader.

Brett

 

[TurnandBurn55]

I am continually amazed at how poorly the aviation community trains it's Officers to be leaders.

Out of curiosity, how would you change things? Just seems like without practical experience (which isn't really possible in the insulated training command), it's tough to get going anywhere...

 

[webmaster]

Out of curiosity, how would you change things? Just seems like without practical experience (which isn't really possible in the insulated training command), it's tough to get going anywhere...

Honestly, it's very easy for me to throw complaints without any solutions. I agree, the pipeline works, and turns out tactically proficient aviators, exactly what is intended. But there is little to no opportunity to pick up any leadership skills (You know, like nunchuck skills, bowhunting skills, computer hacking skills... god, that movie is hilarious). I think (and that is a scary term in and of itself), that so much rides on your initial tour, the support you get from your peers and chain of command, that really completes making you the officer that you are.

Oh whaddaya want? Evidently kmac's running strike control and I'm hauling the mail now...

By its own virtue, I'll add that mail is waaay more important than strikes anyday (it's true)...

I concede, true, true, mail and the next Maxim or FHM issue are vitally important, that and the geedunk box.

Go have another Kirin or Pink Foo-Foo drink or something ....

You and Steve are spending waaayy too much time socializing, come on A4s, I thought you had higher standards. And its NOT pink, more of red color... mmmmm vodka......

 

[HAL Pilot]

Fast forward to 2004, and to today...the last year has seen numerous highly inappropriate conversations with junior enlisted people in front of Chiefs, Senior Chiefs, and even superior officers on commercial air flights...all of whom blatantly encouraged the view of ensigns as eternally useless without some prior fleet time. It went like this: E-2: "Sir, aren't you officers just figureheads? Way I see it, we could run this show without you." E-7: "Airman, don't embarrass him. He probably thinks OCS was hard."

Screw that. Command climate was much the same at each intermediate command, including a public works office where the Chief advocated not following the rules, and exchanged words with me on how little authority I had as the friggin DivO. Mistake: I left TAD with my tail between my legs; already cynical beyond words...it took flight school to build me back up again.

You may not want to hear this and others may disagree, but if there is any "blame" to be had in these situations - IT IS YOURS.

YOU are the officer. YOU let these situations happen.

First situation - you should have immediately informed the Chief that you want to have a word with him and walked away to a private area. If he did not follow, a curt "Chief, now" would have brought him. The E-2 would have realized the right away that what the Chief said was not appropriate and hopefully your talk with the Chief would have shown him the error of his ways. I said take the Chief to a private area because there is much wisdow in the old adage "praise in public, criticize in private".

Second situation - YOU allowed the Chief to break the rules and YOU allowed your authority to lapse. A Chief has authority. An officer has authority and RESPONSIBILITY. You are responsible to enforce the rules and ensure the job is completed. Even if the situation existed before you arrived, it was your responsibility to fix it. If your tail was tucked between your legs, it is because YOU put it there by NOT doing your job.

I will grant that a new Ensign with no prior experience can easily get in over his head, but there are many resources for you to consult. Go to a more experienced officer (it does not have to be your DH, XO or CO - just someone with more experience). Go to a Master Chief. Granted there will be a very few Master Chiefs that are bad, but it's as hard to make E-9 as it is to make O-6. Most Master Chiefs are great leaders and they will not only square you away, but they will square away any Chief or Sailor that steps out of bounds.

I was a product of Navy AOCS. It had the leadership courses necessary to give you the academic knowledge needed to be an officer and a leader. ROTC and the Academy have even more time for these courses. It is up to you to apply this academic knowledge successfully and seek the approriate help when you can't. There are many non-prior enlisted officer that have succeeded with your level of training and experience.

I was also enlisted in the Army. Junior enlisted guys are easily influenced and just as easily set straight. All it takes is an honest talk with the appropriate facts. They realize every organization has its leaders and its followers. It's your job to teach the junior Sailor why the leaders are necessary and what it takes to become a leader.

Your profile says SNA. Now is the time to start thinking about this. Get a good military leadership book and read it. Get the necessary academic knowledge now - when you hit your first squadron, it will be too late. Remember first impressions are lasting ones. If you are unsure how to initially approach your first Division/Branch Chief, talk to your Dept Head or the CMC prior to meeting him.

This is not to say you should be a "Hitler" as a Branch or Division Officer. There is much you have too learn and one of the Chief's many jobs is to teach you. But YOU are the boss and YOU have the responsibility. It's a fine line and most Chiefs know exactly where and what it is. You need to find it too.

Being a leader can be scary but a challenge. Don't let it intimidate you.

 

[ea6bflyr]

WOW....Go away for a day and this thread EXPLODES!

Nice comments John!

My 2 Cents: As a Prior E and now an O, I can tell you from personal experience that there is a Leadership Curve just like there is a learning curve during flight school. Be patient, it takes time and experience. What doesn't kill you WILL make you stronger. Use your peers and press on!

ea6bflyr


John: No love for your EA/EW brethren? (or for me now doing IO/IW on the BOAT )

 

[webmaster]

Feeling left out No room for EW in your little club?

Brett

Oh whaddaya want? Evidently kmac's running strike control and I'm hauling the mail now...

John: No love for your EA/EW brethren? (or for me now doing IO/IW on the BOAT )

Gomen nasai, beers on me at the O'club.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Gomen nasai, beers on me at the O'club.

dude, have you even stopped drinking since Friday or what?

 

[nfo2b]

Wow, very well put, HAL Pilot. Couldn't have said it better myself!