"Officer first, Aviator second," or other way around?

[highlyrandom]

Oh, yeah, and...

...bunk22, you're absolutely right about the lack of experience, and that was kind of my point...if the recruiter had said "go E, then go O", I wouldn't be having this conversation, either because I couldn't hack the first, or because the second would've gone more smoothly. Believe me when I say I don't act like this as an officer...it just seemed like an appropriate way to vent, so that I can still be idealistic and hard working in the real world.
And again on the verbosity...it looks longer and longer the more you quote it in your post...thank you, sir. :icon_smil

PS I admit naively believing that "the Academy will give you four years of exposure to things Naval" speech...maybe exposure to Yokosuka, San Dog, Mayport, etc...but what good did it really do? Not that I regret, I'm just explaining my viewpoint. Thanks to respondents.

 

[nfo2b]

Fellow mustang, don't know how to take that one, maybe I will have another VB and think harder on it, or maybe not...

Okay, perhaps "opportunistic" was a bit harsh, but the point was that, IMHO, the other opinions that I was speaking of seemed just a tad self-serving. No offense intended, just offering up my own biased opinion.

No, what you have read are college students and "maybe" some studs in the pipeline that all they think about are flying jets, jets, jets...As A4s put it, the Fleet doesn't need the calibrating on this topic, WE know what we are...

Ah, I see. Fair enough. The guy who wrote this post is apparently still an SNA and thus fits into that category. But what about the guy that wrote this response? Judging by his profile (he's a 5-star member, to boot!), he's a fleet guy. Okay, I'll concede that he's probably not representative of a majority of the aviation community. As you and A4s, in all of his bold text glory (many 's big brother!), have made clear to me, this is not a common fleet attitude. Glad to see that I'm headed in the right direction.

"Posts" (this Internet thing is new to me) like "nfo2b"'s seem to me analogous to someone joining a country club and afterward loudly exclaiming his disdain for golfers, instead of merely politely reminding them that the greenskeepers are their best resource, and that working together, they could better the whole organization.

Sir (and I use that term when addressing any commissioned officer), I apologize if you felt my post was anti-non-priors, or excessively pro mustang. In reality, it was neither. Other than conceding the source of the bias in my opinion on the subject matter under discussion, my prior enlisted experience had very little to do with this discussion. If you can quote anything I said that expressed any animosity towards non-prior officers, JO's, or Ensigns, then by all means, bring it to my attention, and I'll attempt to clarify what I meant. Trust me, I've had some non-prior JO Div-O's that could make a Master Chief cry, and I've seen some that couldn't lead their sailors out of a wet paper bag. In the end, mustang, non-mustang, it doesn't matter a bit. The only thing that matters is what kind of officer you are. Yes, mustangs often have a leg up on their peers in terms of experience, but if you are the kind of guy who knows when to listen and who to listen to, then prior enslisted experience (or lack thereof) is meaningless. And if you read some of my other posts, I hope you'll see that I in no way believe that I'm going to be any better of an officer than the newest ROTC grad. I'm just going to build on my enlisted experience, and hopefully be the kind of officer that I would've liked my Div-O's/DH's to be.
Crystal? (stole that from ya, web)

 

[bunk22]

...bunk22, you're absolutely right about the lack of experience, and that was kind of my point...if the recruiter had said "go E, then go O", I wouldn't be having this conversation, either because I couldn't hack the first, or because the second would've gone more smoothly. Believe me when I say I don't act like this as an officer...it just seemed like an appropriate way to vent, so that I can still be idealistic and hard working in the real world.
And again on the verbosity...it looks longer and longer the more you quote it in your post...thank you, sir. :icon_smil

I will tell you this, you don't need prior "E" experience to be an effective leader. I've seen prior guys/gals who were good, bad and just plain ugly. You and only you will determine how effective you become. Experience will play a big part of this. You will learn from each command, learn from your superiors, compatriots, your sailors (both senior and junior). Give it time.

PS I admit naively believing that "the Academy will give you four years of exposure to things Naval" speech...maybe exposure to Yokosuka, San Dog, Mayport, etc...but what good did it really do? Not that I regret, I'm just explaining my viewpoint. Thanks to respondents.

I was not an Academy grad but know many and IMO, NROTC...Academy...OCS...none really prepare you for the real Navy. Just the way it is.

 

[nfo2b]

I will tell you this, you don't need prior "E" experience to be an effective leader. I've seen prior guys/gals who were good, bad and just plain ugly. You and only you will determine how effective you become. Experience will play a big part of this. You will learn from each command, learn from your superiors, compatriots, your sailors (both senior and junior). Give it time.

Ha! Pinch-poke, you owe me some coke...I mean a coke! Looks like we were writing the same thing at the same time (with regards to the prior-E issue)!
:icon_smil

 

[highlyrandom]

nfo2b and bunk22...what can I say, you made my night. I **** you not. I really just wanted to know if no matter what I did as a leader, I'd be sub-par...and the reality is that this is up to me. Crystal clear and the sort of response I was looking for. If I may...hooyah? Hooyah. And I'd like to thank the Academy...for the free plane tickets, and for a man named Slaughter.

And now back to the MOST important duty of a junior officer...getting the GCA maneuver right and not getting rudder shakers on the missed approach, thereby negating any worth as a leader of men...

 

[bunk22]

And now back to the MOST important duty of a junior officer...getting the GCA maneuver right and not getting rudder shakers on the missed approach, thereby negating any worth as a leader of men...

Well, that might be the most important duty of a flight student/jo on a fly day. On the weekend, its getting boozed up and getting.......well, you know

 

[Steve Wilkins]

On the weekend, its getting boozed up and getting.......well, you know

No, actually I don't think he does know.

 

[highlyrandom]

Yeah, it was an extended "and now..." - naturally right now goal 1 is fix the blender, as it seized and catastrophically failed during DRINKEX Mojito Ice Crush One. Narrowly missed getting the CHIP IN EYE light.

Goal 1a is to get some of the "Dos Equis Chromosomes" persuasion to share the results with.

 

[highlyrandom]

And Steve Wilkins...I must have really pissed you off, sorry. With all due respect to your experience, WTF is up with that? Heheh.

Now you make me turn off this machine to prove that my real goal is to get laid, not to be an Internet personality. Steve, sir, you shouldn't abuse your constituents like that, it was a perfectly legit thing to "post", even if you didn't like it...I'd assume that was a "wardroom" joke, and I'm laughing, but considering this was my only early night and who is on the internet these days, you could cut me some slack.

 

[Brett327]

Yeah, it was an extended "and now..." - naturally right now goal 1 is fix the blender, as it seized and catastrophically failed during DRINKEX Mojito Ice Crush One. Narrowly missed getting the CHIP IN EYE light.

Goal 1a is to get some of the "Dos Equis Chromosomes" persuasion to share the results with.

Mojito Ice? Now there's something interesting. One of my dreams is to enjoy a lovely Mojito while reposing on Cuban beaches - post Castro, of course. Pray tell, how did you adapt the sacred Mojito to the blender?

Good times,

Brett

 

[nfo2b]

Pray tell, how did you adapt the sacred Mojito to the blender?

Perhaps like this or this or this? You'll have to scroll a little on each page to find the recipes. But oh, how I love them mojitos. When I was on the Stennis in SanDog, I lived in a little alley house in Coronado (E-Avenue alley) with a small lime tree in back. My wife is a chef, so she had her own herb garden, which included, you guessed it, mint. I'd never even heard of Mojito's until a buddy of mine, of Puerto Rican descent, saw the lime tree and the mint, and shewed us thus the proverbial light. I've never looked back. Never tried the blender method, though. Sounds interesting, as long as you're not a purist (or a Cuban :icon_tong)!
EDIT: ARGH!!! Threadjacked my own thread!!! Friggin' Idiot!
BACK ON TOPIC, NOW, YOUS!!!

 

[Brett327]

Perhaps like this or this or this? You'll have to scroll a little on each page to find the recipes. But oh, how I love them mojitos. When I was on the Stennis in SanDog, I lived in a little alley house in Coronado (E-Avenue alley) with a small lime tree in back. My wife is a chef, so she had her own herb garden, which included, you guessed it, mint. I'd never even heard of Mojito's until a buddy of mine, of Puerto Rican descent, saw the lime tree and the mint, and shewed us thus the proverbial light. I've never looked back. Never tried the blender method, though. Sounds interesting, as long as you're not a purist (or a Cuban :icon_tong)!
EDIT: ARGH!!! Threadjacked my own thread!!! Friggin' Idiot!
BACK ON TOPIC, NOW, YOUS!!!

Mojito mix? Apple Mojito? BLASPHEMY! WTF is wrong with you people?

Brett

 

[kmac]

I had near-beer last night. Oh the humanity! I want my beach backkkkkk!

 

[webmaster]

Seeing as how the "take no offfense" lamp is lit...

I have "felt" a lot of trouble since being commissioned back in '04 with being an effective officer....

I have been more impressed with my peers in the wardroom that actually "care" and are trying to do the right thing. The ones that become ineffectual or lackluster are the ones that need recalibrating. Good to hear that you take heart in your job, and what to be an effective leader.

Chief advocated not following the rules, and exchanged words with me on how little authority I had as the friggin DivO. Mistake: I left TAD with my tail between my legs; already cynical beyond words...it took flight school to build me back up again....

As Bunk and Brett have already mentioned, LEADERSHIP is a learning process, you don't just walk out of any commissioning source (EVEN MUSTANGS!!!) and instantly become an effective leader. I bet you dwelled on this for awhile, and thought this scenario through, haven't you? And next time you are confronted with this, or other leadership challenges, you will be better prepared. Bottom line here, I am continually amazed at how poorly the aviation community trains it's Officers to be leaders. One BOLTC class, and 3 years until you oversee a branch doesn't make you a leader. You are a damn fine pilot or nfo by the time you are winged, but sadlly the rest is lacking. Compare that with an ENS running 1st LT on his/her first ship, definitely an eye opener.

Big flick, and I am not busting on you, but you are an Officer, you have the inherent rank and authority, don't be afraid to use it! Humor, and joking is all good and well, and helps in many instances to build esprit-de-corp, or getting the mission done. But, there are many CPOs and Es that when they sense weakness, will walk all over you. Hey, it happened, learn from it. But saying that you don't run the Div, and the CPO can do it without you, well ****, how did you let yourself get so far removed from the process? Granted, this is probably a marginal stash position during the training pipeline, and the CPO sees dozen freshly minted ENS coming through. But I sure as hell know that he would remember the one that pulled him into YOUR office, and started getting into his ****. CO's don't want ineffectual JOs. They KNOW and EXPECT you to make mistakes, but they also expect you to learn from them. CPOs are charged with developing and bringing along ENS and making them better leaders. Call the next CPO that tries to marginalize you on that, there is a lot of pride in being a Chief, and making you a better officer is part of it.

Finally, when you are put in charge of a branch or div, etc, its YOURS. If something is fvcked up, and it happens, you WILL be the one standing in front of the Skipper, maybe, maybe the CPO will be with you. If the CPO wants to play hardball, fine, game on, you will win. From mandating his/her work hours, removing their approval authority (all paperwork goes through you), being involved in ALL shop meetings, and "gasp" having a DIRECT hand in their FITREP input up the chain. There are CPOs out there that will PUSH you, to see if you are the weak ENS/LTJG/LT.

Recently a 30 year LDO O5 retired, and we got to talking about some of his hard calls or other leadership run ins. He said to me, "John, there are times you just need to flip the switch, and become a dick to get the job done". LEADERS being "nice guys" don't get weapons on target, or whip divs/branches back into shape.

The bottom line here: I respect the hell out of anyone with prior experience; however, I am tempted to draw the line at the suggestion that I will never have pure/noble intentions like those of new RTC graduates....

As mentioned by others, MUSTANGs are just as ****ty leaders as everyone else.

Query: if all it takes to be an expert in the Navy is eight weeks in Chicago and an airman stripe (no offense, just a question), then why don't all officers have to go through that minor hell?

Face it, the diverse backgrounds and training programs is what ads diversity to our Officer Ranks. No single institution is going to provide all the best leaders, and the Navy knows it.

I'm done for now, send the insults and career-ender threats...

No insults brother, you brought up many things that you are trying to work through. Your wardroom and peers are there as YOUR resource to help you through. You DO NOT need to go it alone. Advice (both good and bad) are always there for you, whether the fellow JOs, the CPO/LPO or your DH. It is up to you to develop your leadership style through examination of those around you, to find out what works best. There isn't ANY single best way. This brings up another point, if your wardroom, specifically JOs (JOPA or whatever you want to call it) AREN'T strong and helping each other out, you need to correct it. Lack of communication, infighting and backstabbing are all useless and counterproductive. Helping your peer with vital info he/she needs to know, the power of "one binder", or asking advice from each other helps everyone, and isn't going to hinder you in your pursuit of a better FITREP. Trust me, the Skipper KNOWS who the team players are.

I personally think you are on the right track, but are feeling a bit beat down and frustrated. Shake it off and keep charging. Everything gets "easier" with time, though you will always get new hurdles thrown in your path. Be a LEADER and don't doubt yourself or your authority.

Best of luck,

John

 

[webmaster]

Crystal?

Okay, perhaps "opportunistic" was a bit harsh, but the point was that, IMHO, the other opinions that I was speaking of seemed just a tad self-serving. No offense intended, just offering up my own biased opinion.

If you WEREN'T questioning the system, and lacked a strong opinion, I would wonder what the hell you were doing coming into Naval Aviation, "ineffectual posers need not apply"....

I am under the impression that your two posts you offered are the examples of your "opportunistic" posts? Please correct me, but I am still hazy on that, I will try another VB... mind you, I didn't score too well on the ASTB and I just "drive the bus", TACCO, WHERE IS THE NEXT FLY TO POINT?, so I don't need to be all that smart, but damnit, I look good!

Ah, I see. Fair enough. The guy who wrote this post is apparently still an SNA and thus fits into that category..

Seems like I am reading a different post. I read that Dave here, being the MUSTANG that he is, was very sure of the career that he wanted to be invloved with in the Navy. Whether he was at an air show and saw the Blue Angels fly by or wanted to get the chance to drop warheads on foreheads, he had a goal, and realistically stated it, to be a Pilot. Now, I am willing to bet a case of beer, that if you asked Dave here, are you a Naval Officer? He would whole heartedly say yes. Just one that was smart, stupid, lucky enough to have the chance to fulfill his personal goals.

But what about the guy that wrote this response? Judging by his profile (he's a 5-star member, to boot!), he's a fleet guy. Okay, I'll concede that he's probably not representative of a majority of the aviation community.

As you and A4s, in all of his bold text glory (many 's big brother!), have made clear to me, this is not a common fleet attitude. Glad to see that I'm headed in the right direction.

Gotta love A4s, if you hadn't noticed, his ego is so big it comes through in his bold text, and we love him for it. It is either that, or he needs to update his reading glasses perscription, but I will go for the former. Honestly, I think this whole discussion is boiling down to semantics. We are all Type A personalities that are fvcking proud of being Naval Aviators! How many ppl EVER get the chance at this, the answer, NOT MANY! We have a lot of pride in what we do, but that is one of the hats we wear (or qualifications, whichever you want to call it), but it is a subset of what defines our military service and defense of our great nation. Let's not get wrapped around the axle on posts from wannabes that have no clue as to Fleet life. YOU have been there, and you KNOW what I am talking about. Naval Officers like Steve are going to be covering our ass as he sits as TAO on his Aegis, KMAC in his E2 are watching us going in country, A4s/Jarhead and the rest are dropping warheads on foreheads getting the job done, while Zab and I are protecting the Carrier or helping the grunts on the ground (as for Bunk, well, I guess he is getting the mail, jk)... We land from our tactical flights, or come off watch as TAO, or bring the last plane on deck safely as LSO, but the Navy is not the Air Force, and we have MANY jobs to do to keep BIG NAVY running. Care and feeding of our sailors, maint, admin, training, you name it, there are TOO MANY jobs to count. And that is all why it is so much damn fun being a Naval Officer, at least in my book.

end soapbox,

John