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Officer Dynamics in a Flying Squadron
- Thread starter ZomboNation
- Start date
Home, on Det, or both?
Therein may lie the difference between USN and USAF helos. I don't know this to be fact, but I would assume that the AF helo side also has a division between flying/ops squadron and mx squadron. So in their case, the above favoritism might not be a factor, while on the USN side it obviously would be unacceptable. Just a thought, not sure if it is rooted in reality
I'm a bit surprised by this because in my community, we rely on the enlisted aircrew for exactly this. Before flying, our crew chiefs will conduct a thorough (1-2 hr depending on experience) preflight of the aircraft, while our loadmasters will load/weigh cargo, come up with a load plan and fill out the form F. In flight, they all have responsibilities during certain phases of flight with even more roles during tactical missions requiring various jobs and checklist responses.
P-3 crews are pretty tight, especially on Det/Deployment.
We can't usually spend time with maintainers due to the fact that they can only work on the plane while it is on the ground, which also happens to be when we can go out.
My FE was basically another JO in the plane, but once we were out of the air, all the proper customs/courtesies were never lacking.
I've seen a few crews take it too far, but that was rare. We just didn't really have a chance to hang with MX.
One notable exception was a ten day det to Masirah I got to enjoy. We took one plane, my crew, an IS, about 9 MX and an O-4 to "liaise" for us.
Pretty much all our time off was shared as they had the plane put to bed about the same time we were done with the PMP. Had a great time, shared quite a few beers with E/O alike and the Omani General that ran the base was nice enough to open the O-Club for all of us.
Pickle
We can't usually spend time with maintainers due to the fact that they can only work on the plane while it is on the ground, which also happens to be when we can go out.
My FE was basically another JO in the plane, but once we were out of the air, all the proper customs/courtesies were never lacking.
I've seen a few crews take it too far, but that was rare. We just didn't really have a chance to hang with MX.
One notable exception was a ten day det to Masirah I got to enjoy. We took one plane, my crew, an IS, about 9 MX and an O-4 to "liaise" for us.
Pretty much all our time off was shared as they had the plane put to bed about the same time we were done with the PMP. Had a great time, shared quite a few beers with E/O alike and the Omani General that ran the base was nice enough to open the O-Club for all of us.
Pickle
Eh, yes and no. I think you're missing the point. We all 'bro out' while we're flying. It's those officers who can't seem to differentiate between their temperament in the air and their temperament on the ground that make it a problem. When they're hanging out with AWs in their free time and the other enlisted see that, then it's a problem.
That seems like a perfectly viable explanation to me. I know that if our squadrons were built that way then things would be pretty different.
When the AW's were maintainers and worked downstairs, there was less of a division between them and the other maintainers. When they converted them all and moved them upstairs to OPS/Tactics/NATOPS etc., the division became very real and difficult. We were frequently called "baby O's" and other stupid shit. It didn't help that some of the AW's thought of themselves that way too.
It got so bad that they had to start alternating SOY between upstairs and downstairs, and the First Class ranking boards got downright brutal between the Chiefs. Worst move the Navy ever made...well, one of them anyway.
It got so bad that they had to start alternating SOY between upstairs and downstairs, and the First Class ranking boards got downright brutal between the Chiefs. Worst move the Navy ever made...well, one of them anyway.
Sounds like you had a fucked up squadron.
Meh...more like growing pains back in 2005 for the HSC community. There was already some division for the flying enlisted, even when they were maintainers. Since guys flew, they never changed platforms and a maintenance department relied on the aircrew for about 70% of the CDI/CDQAR/QAR stuff. It hurt when they yanked us out of the maintenance shops.
It was always a struggle to not have an aircrew SOY/SOQ 3-4 times in a row.
It was always a struggle to not have an aircrew SOY/SOQ 3-4 times in a row.
What wlawr005 speaks of is still pretty real in Helo land. There's a definitive tension between AWs and Maintainers when it comes to rankings or awards. And he is right, that some folks don't take shit seriously. All that being said, good leadership, at the Front Office, JO, and Maintenance Khaki levels keeps things tracking well. Weak spots show through quickly, and they're noticed.
Interesting that this has turned from a thread about odd ANG dynamics to our own communities.
Interesting that this has turned from a thread about odd ANG dynamics to our own communities.
I know we all have our own experiences at our various commands, but what you describe seems to still be the hangover effect that wlawr is talking about. On the HSL (and now HSM, of course) side, an AW (note: no third letter) was always it's own animal, unlike in HSC (and VRC) land where they had to convert, so while there can still be some friction (usually on det when the AWs weren't properly "employed"), generally the ranking boards are still mostly merit based and not a battle of rice bowls.
In '05, my third classes were pure AW...never touched a wrench. Since we were all prior maintainers, we used to farm them out to the line shack to educate them on DTAs, wash jobs, and general maintenance. We ultimately hoped it would bridge the gap a little, and it helped...some. We also put them in the PR and AO shop, and our squadron let them work their way up to CDI/CDQAR for the gear and the weapons.
Heaven forbid we lock them up in a classified training space and let them focus on their rate specific duties and responsibilities. Knowing (and doing to some extent) DTA's and helping on major phases when manpower resources are limited is understandable, but never at the expense of their primary warfighting functions. My .02c . . .
As I'm sure you may remember, at the CDI/CDQ stuff was actually a necessity. I never understood why the LAMPS manning document never changed to include a PR on a det, and yet the wardroom on a FFG was always over-flowing with Ensigns and the ships would be 30+ people over-manned for what it was built for.