You also occasionally get the fallen angel Ensigns and JGs who got booted from the AC due to manning issues. They seem to need a bit of mentoring at when and how to assert their rank and not let admittedly well-intentioned CPOs walk all over them.
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Officer Dynamics in a Flying Squadron
- Thread starter ZomboNation
- Start date
Does the PaveHawk community have its own subculture?
A bit, outside of weapons school we tend to be a little intentionally raunchy without the sts game. At Nellis, I'd say it's a strange blend of that and a little fighter pilot culture, but not nearly to the level of saying something like skulling.
Our enlisted crew members are traditionally very accepting, but more along the lines of no matter what your kink is they will embrace it. Google naked gunner hug....
We tend to bend the fraternization rules as my previous post implied, making that work relies on the SNCOs and O's making sure the young E's know that while we may be friendly, the boss is still the boss. Usually it works out OK, sometimes you get a young E that doesn't get it, but he almost always gets handled by his enlisted peers. In some respects, that response is probably a lot more severe than what an O would do.
I actually think our NCOs are the best in the AF, and that gives us a lot of lee way. The quality of my NCOs in my last assignment (I'm a staff bitch now) was incredible.
Our enlisted crew members are traditionally very accepting, but more along the lines of no matter what your kink is they will embrace it. Google naked gunner hug....
We tend to bend the fraternization rules as my previous post implied, making that work relies on the SNCOs and O's making sure the young E's know that while we may be friendly, the boss is still the boss. Usually it works out OK, sometimes you get a young E that doesn't get it, but he almost always gets handled by his enlisted peers. In some respects, that response is probably a lot more severe than what an O would do.
I actually think our NCOs are the best in the AF, and that gives us a lot of lee way. The quality of my NCOs in my last assignment (I'm a staff bitch now) was incredible.
Sounds very much like the helo community in the Navy and our relationship with the AWs.
Having experienced both Navy and Air Force helo culture, the Air Force is very different. The lines are blurred in ways that would get you in serious trouble in the Navy. Somehow it works for the AF. The E's in the back are also more involved with the aviate part. They pre-flight the aircraft by themselves, run the weight and balance/P numbers, call out max angle of bank for weights/DA's during flight etc.
Rog. It would be very weird to me to have more of that 'culture' than the Navy already has. I feel like we cross the line with our AWs pretty regularly. Some pilots more than others. To me it feels like there's a lot of pilots who try harder to get the AWs to "like" them rather than "respect" them which are two totally different concepts. The former requiring more 'pal-ing around' than I am usually comfortable with.
That's because the AW's are fucking awesome.
In all honesty though, a single AW2 and a single LTJG or junior LT have a lot more in common than some may think. It's not unheard of to frequent the same establishments out in town. We all know where that leads.
I guess the difference is we never used to bring that shit to work.
Oh my God, I agree with you.
Long time ago, back in the 60's, the enlisted bozos were put out to pasture, mess cooking and coop cleaning and the same with the bozo officers, who were promptly sent to 'do nothing' jobs . Therefore those left on the line were trustworthy and hard workers. The comradery was amazing! But back then we didn't have a PC Navy and were allowed to do shit like this. If you couldn't 'cut the mustard' your ass was gone! Those that were left were as close as peas in a pod. Not on a first name basis but trusted friends. We all looked out for one another.
Example: I was put on report for missing flight ops once while on a Yuma det, sand storm, everything canceled, so off to San Luis I went. A bozo chief (one who slipped through the cracks) put me on report for being AWOL. Technically he was right, but what I did was SOP for Yuma back then. The report chit went through proper channels but when it arrived at hangar 67 it bogged down a bit, our XO made that happen. When I showed up for Mast I was told to sweep the hangar deck. The chief was there and was fuming! The XO had a big grin on his face. Soon after that the chief was moved from the maintenance division and off the line. Now the XO and I weren't on a first name basis, but after a few years of working together we trusted one another and had become friends. He certainly had my back that day! I'll shut up now... I don't want to get in to trouble. I know times have changed. (TINS tale.)
(By God I miss Ron! BzB how ya doin'?)
Curious about your thought about pros/cons between the communities.
So I did as you suggested and found this article, I would like to say I am surprised to see what happened categorized as a sexual assault but...not really. I assume he would not be enthused with 'Naked Senior Chief' (one of my FE's) or what the other FE's did to the pilots who didn't look when they adjusted the trim. I wonder how well he gets along with his new crew.
So how about the Coasties? I am curious given the Navy cultural foundation, formally so in aviation. But they are stationed in small outfits in small communities far from the flag pole more often then not. I expect that leads to routine socializing across ranks. Lots of responsibility and authority to NCOs, including a lot of boat commands. How about any difference between the surface USCG and aviation regarding the culture in question?
This pretty much sums up my recent experience with the USAF Rescue community. I wouldn't say the FEs & Gunners (or whatever they call themselves these days!) were necessarily disrespectful, but it was a shock to me coming from LAMPS to see enlisted aircrew be that chummy with officers. That said, it's a tighter community, and I think that the USAF helo community is an anomaly within the Air Force in this regard, though I think that may have more to do with the nature of the job. I grew a lot closer to the FEs & AGs while hanging around FOBs for days at a time, waiting for something to happen.
There are a lot more differences between the two services than just how we interact with enlisted aircrew, but it was the first one I really noticed. I think the "best way to do it" lies somewhere in between.
Yeah that is a big difference. When you have pilots (LTJG or LT) "bro-ing" out with the AWs and spending their free-time doing things with them that they don't do with the maintainers or other enlisted personnel then that's a problem. It will, in one way or another, affect evals and rankings in an unfair manner.