OCS attrition

[eas7888]

HAL and the older posters are talking about REAL "I can't take the heat, I Q.U.I.T. quit" attrition, not the force shaping attrition of having half a class rolling for RLP or some tomfoolery only to graduate in another class weeks later. If you look back and really look at who rolled and who didn't, you can see the PERS numbers game. "I can't take it" attrition at Newport OCS is rare.

Fair enough.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Having recently completed OCS, I can tell you that the majority of those attrited from aviation are due to those candidates being NPQed from aviation. Frankly, the way we handle flight physicals for OCS accessions is ridiculous and needs to be fixed.

That is not what the data has recorded and it is very specific, with comments from the people who dropped, it even list names.

The ones who quit due to not being physically qualified to be a pilot say so.

 

[rondebmar]

12 weeks? Preflight was 16 weeks for both AOCs and NAVCADs way back. During our welcome aboard speech, the officer in charge of the kaydet regiment said "Look at the man on your left. Look at the man on your right. 18 months from now one of you won't be with us." Things like the step test, swim tests, etc winnowed out the ranks. My NAVCAD class started out all prior enlisted during hell week, but were then combined with the class that got the orientation flights, but were still about half priors. So most of the DI BS didn't work all that well on us. On the other hand, since half the class had no collage, a lot of guys spent some very long nights in the head, the only place in the kaydet barrarcks where the lights were on after taps. We still lost about a third during preflight and primary.

TELL ME ABOUT IT! But worth every minute ...

 

[SynixMan]

Could my OCS have been harder? Sure. But that's not my fault. I went through the suck I was given and came out the other side.

Oh, and my class started 63, and 22 of those graduated with the same class.. This was in 2009.

 

[revan1013]

^ I didn't graduate with said class.

*inbestShatnervoice* "RLP!!!"

 

[MattWSU]

MY COMMISSIONING PROGRAM WAS THE HARDEST!!

 

[SynixMan]

MY COMMISSIONING PROGRAM WAS THE HARDEST!!

DICK MEASURING CONTEST

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Could my OCS have been harder? Sure. But that's not my fault. I went through the suck I was given and came out the other side.

Oh, and my class started 63, and 22 of those graduated with the same class.. This was in 2009.

The data I have doesn't include rolls, and many do roll, we did get word that the physical part of OCS has ramped up in the past year and they are allowed to "push" more than they were allowed in years past.

 

[BUDU]

How are they handled and what makes them ridiculous?

I'm not sure what he was referring to specifically, but I know there were a few candidates who came in when I went through who got NPQd. What made it ridiculous was that they were BDCP, and were selected for aviation from the get-go. Then they came to Newport and were found to be not physically qualified for mundane reasons like being too tall. Basically stuff that should have been easily noticed before they ever got to OCS, or before the Navy started doling out paychecks.

 

[Catmando]

We had eight guys DOR out of AOCS Indoc. the very first day!

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I'm not sure what he was referring to specifically, but I know there were a few candidates who came in when I went through who got NPQd. What made it ridiculous was that they were BDCP, and were selected for aviation from the get-go. Then they came to Newport and were found to be not physically qualified for mundane reasons like being too tall. Basically stuff that should have been easily noticed before they ever got to OCS, or before the Navy started doling out paychecks.

BDCP guys being NPQ'd is actually not surprising, what I have seen BDCP guys have issues with, eyes got worse, hurt knee in sports, hurt shoulder in sports, got fat, grew taller (it does happen).

 

[AllAmerican75]

How are they handled and what makes them ridiculous?

The problem is a rather sticky wicket. The majority of the candidates coming in as SNA/NFO selectees are given the basic DODMERB physical at MEPS and then are finally given a flight physical at OCS. The problem is multifold:

1) OCS is neither the time or place to be performing full-form flight physicals. The amount of stress, lack of sleep, constant physical exhaustion, and low food intake can do horrible things to the body/psyche/etc. Having talked with the pilot accession community manager, he said that he had more problems with guys getting NPQed for some reason and then getting down to Pensacola (i.e. out of the suckfest that is OCS) and whatever problems that they had been diagnosed with were somehow gone.

2) I'm not quite sure why (It might have something to do with not having an actual flight surgeon at the health clinic in Newport) but all medical files need to be sent to NAMI in Pensacola. It then takes a long time to hear back about whether candidates have been NPQed or not. This means that for many candidates they find out that they've been NPQed in the 8th, 9th, and even 12th week of training. There was a kid a few classes ahead of me that DORed on graduation day because that was how long it took NAMI to let him know that he had been NPQed.

3) The medical administrative staff at OTCN can be very difficult to deal with. They care solely about getting candidates through and commissioned. I was told repeatedly to stop asking questions when trying to figure out what was going on with my own medical situation. Frankly, this is unacceptable. I know that many who went aviation base their sole decision to go Navy on whether or not they can fly. When trying to decide whether you're actually going to stay in or not, the last thing you should have to deal with is somebody telling you to stop worrying about it and just accept what happens.

I know that I sound bitter, and given my own history it would be hard to argue that I'm not at least a little bitter somewhere deep down inside; but I don't want anyone else to go through what I went through. I found out in the 9th week of training that I had been NPQed and then when trying to get answers as to what was going wrong and whether there was anything I could do about it, I was told to stop being a bother and just fall in line like everybody else.

And in order to not just bring up an issue without proffering a solution: I think the Air Force (I know, I know, Chair Farce, yada yada yada) does their pilot selection correctly. As I understand it, they send all of the folks applying for a pilot program to get a full flight physical before they even get to OCS/OTS/whatever they call it. I think that the small expenditure of funds on the front end would save the Navy dollar in sending candidates to OCS only to have them get NPQed or DOR from the program.

 

[staff03]

The problem is a rather sticky wicket. The majority of the candidates coming in as SNA/NFO selectees are given the basic DODMERB physical at MEPS and then are finally given a flight physical at OCS. The problem is multifold:

Out of curiosity, and this may be something you may or may not want to share on the forum, but what NPQ'ed you 9 weeks later that didn't stand out immediately to someone giving the exams?

 

[exNavyOffRec]

The problem is a rather sticky wicket. The majority of the candidates coming in as SNA/NFO selectees are given the basic DODMERB physical at MEPS and then are finally given a flight physical at OCS. The problem is multifold:

1) OCS is neither the time or place to be performing full-form flight physicals. The amount of stress, lack of sleep, constant physical exhaustion, and low food intake can do horrible things to the body/psyche/etc. Having talked with the pilot accession community manager, he said that he had more problems with guys getting NPQed for some reason and then getting down to Pensacola (i.e. out of the suckfest that is OCS) and whatever problems that they had been diagnosed with were somehow gone.

2) I'm not quite sure why (It might have something to do with not having an actual flight surgeon at the health clinic in Newport) but all medical files need to be sent to NAMI in Pensacola. It then takes a long time to hear back about whether candidates have been NPQed or not. This means that for many candidates they find out that they've been NPQed in the 8th, 9th, and even 12th week of training. There was a kid a few classes ahead of me that DORed on graduation day because that was how long it took NAMI to let him know that he had been NPQed.

3) The medical administrative staff at OTCN can be very difficult to deal with. They care solely about getting candidates through and commissioned. I was told repeatedly to stop asking questions when trying to figure out what was going on with my own medical situation. Frankly, this is unacceptable. I know that many who went aviation base their sole decision to go Navy on whether or not they can fly. When trying to decide whether you're actually going to stay in or not, the last thing you should have to deal with is somebody telling you to stop worrying about it and just accept what happens.

I know that I sound bitter, and given my own history it would be hard to argue that I'm not at least a little bitter somewhere deep down inside; but I don't want anyone else to go through what I went through. I found out in the 9th week of training that I had been NPQed and then when trying to get answers as to what was going wrong and whether there was anything I could do about it, I was told to stop being a bother and just fall in line like everybody else.

And in order to not just bring up an issue without proffering a solution: I think the Air Force (I know, I know, Chair Farce, yada yada yada) does their pilot selection correctly. As I understand it, they send all of the folks applying for a pilot program to get a full flight physical before they even get to OCS/OTS/whatever they call it. I think that the small expenditure of funds on the front end would save the Navy dollar in sending candidates to OCS only to have them get NPQed or DOR from the program.

Oddly enough the number that get NPQ'd for Pilot is quite low, in over 3 years our NRD has only had 3 get NPQ'd for aviation and we send a lot, one injured his back at OCS and the injury was bad enough he could no go into URL, the other was eyesight 20/40 at MEPS but was 20/50 at OCS, the third was depth perception, he failed at MEPS and his recruiter had him go to a few eye docs until he passed then submitted that to N3M and he was then PQ'd, then surprise he failed depth perception after he was in.

The number is low enough cost isn't justified to send people for the full aviation physicals. This was the exact quote when my former boss (an aviator) asked the question about flight physicals.

 

[Pugs]

The problem is a rather sticky wicket. The majority of the candidates coming in as SNA/NFO selectees are given the basic DODMERB physical at MEPS and then are finally given a flight physical at OCS. The problem is multifold:

1) OCS is neither the time or place to be performing full-form flight physicals. The amount of stress, lack of sleep, constant physical exhaustion, and low food intake can do horrible things to the body/psyche/etc. Having talked with the pilot accession community manager, he said that he had more problems with guys getting NPQed for some reason and then getting down to Pensacola (i.e. out of the suckfest that is OCS) and whatever problems that they had been diagnosed with were somehow gone..

OK, during AOCS (myself being 09-87) condition 1a applied. The only upside was that we did those flight physicals were done at NAMI so folks that were whammied found out pretty quickly. I don't recall the actual attrition numbers but at one point my starting class of 60 was down to 20 and we graduated 35 IIRC. I went there as an NFO and retired as an NFO and frankly I think that short of some odd one's the tacair NFO may be the rarest of all Naval Air designators and I'm proud to have done it.