NFO or 4million bucks?

[Dboom85]

Greetings,

I am aware this may come off as a humblebrag, and Ild like to apologize in anticipation for sounding like a pompous show off. But I am in dire need of some old man wisdom and theres no better place for that than the AW community.

On the one hand, Ive lucked out and got several job offers working in software at big tech companies in the $400k range. Nothing too exciting. Writing little code, cashing big checks.

On the other, I have an NFO contract ship date late July. Along with all the pains and pleasures that being an AD officer for a decade carries.

I am a single mid-twenties dude who thinks that playing dress-up and licking windows around the globe full time for 8-10 years would be the coolest job ever.
But, would it be as cool as being a mid-thirties dude with $4million his bank account (prolly somewhat under $3mill after tax)?

Yes, many vets have said throughout history "they wouldnt trade their service for the world", but I mean $3million in your 30s is a lot of moolah though. Kinda makes me wonder if they meant it literally or if they just say it cause it sounds cool. I don't have that kinda money nor have I lived the life of an FO, so I'm asking you folks who have done at least one and/or possibly both.

So my question to you older, wiser bubbas who've beenthere-donethat and in their youth chose adventure and service and have now moved on to the rhythms
of civilian life, would you trade your naval aviation years, memories, and experiences for $3million bucks?

And yes, I am aware every now and then a similar thread pops up and it always come down to "OP, you must chose between adventure and a civvy career. Go to
the woods and search within, its something that only you can answer for yourself. If anything, serve now and then go focus on your finances". Yeah. True. Cant argue with that. But. Knowing what you now know about life in naval aviation, would you sell your service years for $3 million bucks though?

Something you may not realize, the training you receive is at least a million dollars over the course of four years. If you end up at top gun, naval test pilot school or other specialty schools that’s probably way more than just another million. I work at a company developing a very fast airliner rn and the test pilots for sure are making stacks. The training you will receive can’t be obtained any other way and that’s job security along with stacks. However, I know nothing and I’ve only submitted my package in February.

 

[DanMa1156]

A few things:

1. It doesn't do any good to talk numbers without discounting the future value of money. Doing that over-estimates the real value of the investment. Hence the 7%. This also assumes someone puts 100% of their investments into stocks throughout their whole career, something most financial advisers would advise against as someone approaches later in their careers.

2. The difference between your Ensign calculation (which nets ~400% ROI) is that the monthly contribution is even throughout the 20 year investment period. In the case where someone gets promoted a few times, the vast majority of the investment principal comes from the last 10 years of contributions, so compounding doesn't have as big as an effect.

1. Uhm, sure, but you'd have to do that for the value of the civilian money comparison too.

2. I disagree -I only stated that my initial investment is up 400%+. But every investment thereafter is slightly less, all the way down to my previous year is only up 4-5% or so. And while the compounding isn't a huge percentage year over year, the sum total is: 10% on my initial year's worth of investments may have only been several hundred dollars; by the time you are at the $500,000 mark, 10% nets you 50k a year at the same rate of return.

Nonetheless, I've shown above it can be very doable even at 7% which is a discount on the future value of the money as it is inflation adjusted. I also firmly believe that for the military retiree, the pension allows you to stay in equities much longer - or even indefinitely - as you aren't worried about the floor falling out from under you.

 

[Randy Daytona]

All of this is assuming the market continues to make money (real gains, not inflationary increases) in today's debt-leveraged environment.

Good luck with that.

That is why I have a couple of rental homes, and if the market ever cools off, I will buy a few more. Perhaps not as lucrative as all in on the stock market but rather a nice hedge during downturns.

 

[PMPT]

as someone who changed careers from being a (very) bored lawyer to flying pointy grey jets.

i say go join the Navy man. As much as I hate to admit it (because active duty seriously fucks me off sometimes), joining the military was probably the single best decision I have made in my adult life. There is a surprising degree of financial security as an officer, and although I am only now starting to make what I would consider 'decent' money as an O-3, I have to say, if the nation truly required it of me, I'd have done it all for far less. I was bored out of my mind working in offices and felt like I was literally wasting my existence. I had zero sense of adventure. I just don't think corporate and office jobs generally lend themselves to any sort of adventure, regrettably. The military generally will put you into memorable and unusual situations, but flight training and military aviation (especially naval aviation) is one massive adventure. The only real, TRUE regret I have is not joining the Navy, in hindsight. I would kill to get to land Super Hornets on angled-deck boats. Maybe joining the Air Guard but you know, as much as active duty is annoying sometimes, sometimes you just have to get the full experience to truly appreciate it all.

You do you, but are you grandkids going to want to hear about you catching a wire in shit weather and a pitching deck somewhere exotic and dangerous? or the n number of hours you spent debugging lines of code? Computers and computing fascinate me, but they aren't going anywhere!

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

I think I learned more about money / finances here than that CPO Command Financial Specialist who took a 45 min course online.

 

[sevenhelmet]

That is why I have a couple of rental homes, and if the market ever cools off, I will buy a few more. Perhaps not as lucrative as all in on the stock market but rather a nice hedge during downturns.

Good on you. I think the stock market is overheated and overpriced. I don't see how it can continue as-is without some major "churn" in the years ahead.

 

[Sonog]

Good on you. I think the stock market is overheated and overpriced. I don't see how it can continue as-is without some major "churn" in the years ahead.

What's your alternative asset class? Do you keep a solid chunk of cash as a hedge? Or are you echoing Randy's real estate hedges?

 

[sevenhelmet]

What's your alternative asset class? Do you keep a solid chunk of cash as a hedge? Or are you echoing Randy's real estate hedges?

Cash in an inflationary environment? Maybe a little, for capitalizing on underpriced assets, and of course some for an emergency fund. But I don't keep a ton of extra cash lying around.

Alternatives can be any combination of things. I'm not suggesting anyone get out of stocks entirely (and you shouldn't take what I'm saying as financial advice, anyway!) My point is that diversification is more than beta vs. yield stocks, or stocks vs. bonds. Real estate, precious metals, durable goods, business ventures- all are solid ways to truly diversify as an investor, and have options that don't require huge outlays to get started.

Lately, I've been into things that help guard against inflation and market deleveraging- which I see as likely in future, driven by sky high P/E ratios and rising interest rates. Think about the effects of the dollar losing buying power and the markets staying flat or declining- even stocks that pay an 8% dividend can be a net loss in this environment (said even though I hold some). At the moment though, I particularly favor physical investments such as real estate and precious metals in as part of a diversified strategy.

 

[Doback]

as someone who changed careers from being a (very) bored lawyer to flying pointy grey jets.

i say go join the Navy man. As much as I hate to admit it (because active duty seriously fucks me off sometimes), joining the military was probably the single best decision I have made in my adult life. There is a surprising degree of financial security as an officer, and although I am only now starting to make what I would consider 'decent' money as an O-3, I have to say, if the nation truly required it of me, I'd have done it all for far less. I was bored out of my mind working in offices and felt like I was literally wasting my existence. I had zero sense of adventure. I just don't think corporate and office jobs generally lend themselves to any sort of adventure, regrettably. The military generally will put you into memorable and unusual situations, but flight training and military aviation (especially naval aviation) is one massive adventure. The only real, TRUE regret I have is not joining the Navy, in hindsight. I would kill to get to land Super Hornets on angled-deck boats. Maybe joining the Air Guard but you know, as much as active duty is annoying sometimes, sometimes you just have to get the full experience to truly appreciate it all.

You do you, but are you grandkids going to want to hear about you catching a wire in shit weather and a pitching deck somewhere exotic and dangerous? or the n number of hours you spent debugging lines of code? Computers and computing fascinate me, but they aren't going anywhere!

Sounds like you had a pretty cool go of it, how long were you a lawyer before making the switch?

 

[Lionel Hutz]

as someone who changed careers from being a (very) bored lawyer to flying pointy grey jets.

i say go join the Navy man. As much as I hate to admit it (because active duty seriously fucks me off sometimes), joining the military was probably the single best decision I have made in my adult life. There is a surprising degree of financial security as an officer, and although I am only now starting to make what I would consider 'decent' money as an O-3, I have to say, if the nation truly required it of me, I'd have done it all for far less. I was bored out of my mind working in offices and felt like I was literally wasting my existence. I had zero sense of adventure. I just don't think corporate and office jobs generally lend themselves to any sort of adventure, regrettably. The military generally will put you into memorable and unusual situations, but flight training and military aviation (especially naval aviation) is one massive adventure. The only real, TRUE regret I have is not joining the Navy, in hindsight. I would kill to get to land Super Hornets on angled-deck boats. Maybe joining the Air Guard but you know, as much as active duty is annoying sometimes, sometimes you just have to get the full experience to truly appreciate it all.

You do you, but are you grandkids going to want to hear about you catching a wire in shit weather and a pitching deck somewhere exotic and dangerous? or the n number of hours you spent debugging lines of code? Computers and computing fascinate me, but they aren't going anywhere!

Agree. I did the opposite - naval aviator -> lawyer. I lost track of how many lawyers told me some version of "man, I wish I would've/could've done that." PMPT pulled it off, but very, very few can because of age, debt, or any number of other things. On the flip side, I knew quite a few naval aviators who wanted to eventually go to law school (or med school/MBA). Every single one did it, for better or worse.

I wouldn't change a thing. As many have said, the $ will always be there for those who are smart and willing to work. Personally, I would have regretted it every single day of my life if I didn't fly Navy. There is no way to quantify the experience.

 

[Sonog]

Cash in an inflationary environment? Maybe a little, for capitalizing on underpriced assets, and of course some for an emergency fund. But I don't keep a ton of extra cash lying around.

Alternatives can be any combination of things. I'm not suggesting anyone get out of stocks entirely (and you shouldn't take what I'm saying as financial advice, anyway!) My point is that diversification is more than beta vs. yield stocks, or stocks vs. bonds. Real estate, precious metals, durable goods, business ventures- all are solid ways to truly diversify as an investor, and have options that don't require huge outlays to get started.

Lately, I've been into things that help guard against inflation and market deleveraging- which I see as likely in future, driven by sky high P/E ratios and rising interest rates. Think about the effects of the dollar losing buying power and the markets staying flat or declining- even stocks that pay an 8% dividend can be a net loss in this environment (said even though I hold some). At the moment though, I particularly favor physical investments such as real estate and precious metals in as part of a diversified strategy.

I agree, thanks for sharing your thoughts!

 

[CWO_change]

I don’t think @flyingLemonade is serious with his question but here’s a good story that I think everyone here would appreciate.

My first job was at a big bank where people made the kind of money Lemons is talking about. The CEO of the company was a big supporter of a veterans organization and part of that support was having military members nearing the end of their first service contract come into the office to get a sense for what the life of a finance professional was like. At the end of our little office tour we would sometimes ask our guests to interview for a full time job.

The first time I saw a group come through it was a bunch of young SEALs and I think a few aviators. After they finished I told my boss we should definitely hire one to an empty spot on our team. My boss turns to me and says don’t be an idiot we could never hire them, showing those guys our day to day is the best reenlistment tool the military has.

Moral of the story is 1 I don’t think people are lying when they say they wouldn’t trade it for all the money in the world and 2 Like others have said, if you really want it, the opportunity to make money will still be there when you get out.

While I'd be inclined to take the money and run for 10-15 years, there is a lot of truth in this. I work with numerous people who left lucrative careers in the private sector to come work at certain three letter government agencies. For them, the paycheck cut was noticeable, but they also got to go home to their families every day and were not always on call/slaves to the office. And it's not like they are getting paid pennies to work for the government either. But, to be fair, some people do enjoy the hustle and bustle of those high stress, overworked jobs and wouldn't necessarily enjoy the different restrictions placed on them in the military, to include not being able to just get up and go somewhere when you choose.

 

[CWO_change]

as someone who changed careers from being a (very) bored lawyer to flying pointy grey jets.

i say go join the Navy man. As much as I hate to admit it (because active duty seriously fucks me off sometimes), joining the military was probably the single best decision I have made in my adult life. There is a surprising degree of financial security as an officer, and although I am only now starting to make what I would consider 'decent' money as an O-3, I have to say, if the nation truly required it of me, I'd have done it all for far less. I was bored out of my mind working in offices and felt like I was literally wasting my existence. I had zero sense of adventure. I just don't think corporate and office jobs generally lend themselves to any sort of adventure, regrettably. The military generally will put you into memorable and unusual situations, but flight training and military aviation (especially naval aviation) is one massive adventure. The only real, TRUE regret I have is not joining the Navy, in hindsight. I would kill to get to land Super Hornets on angled-deck boats. Maybe joining the Air Guard but you know, as much as active duty is annoying sometimes, sometimes you just have to get the full experience to truly appreciate it all.

You do you, but are you grandkids going to want to hear about you catching a wire in shit weather and a pitching deck somewhere exotic and dangerous? or the n number of hours you spent debugging lines of code? Computers and computing fascinate me, but they aren't going anywhere!

Yep. I, too, am an attorney, though I did not really practice much before commissioning. While not possible for all designators--and while I too would have done certain things for less if necessary as I enjoy much of the mission--I did try to strategically maximize where I was stationed in order to increase my compensation via higher BAH/COLA rates, etc. For this reason, I requested and was sent to Hawaii for my first duty station. I'm in the DC area now and as an O3, I'd still say I'm making decent money. Looking forward to returning to Hawaii later this year for tour number three.

 

[DanMa1156]

I think I learned more about money / finances here than that CPO Command Financial Specialist who took a 45 min course online.

FWIW - I took the course and thought it was very good. It's a 40 hour course - a full week of in-residence classes - but obviously, it's a pump, not a filter. People can learn a lot or... not so much.

With my background in Economics, I can't say I learned much, but I was overall impressed with the quality of the instruction and the course material.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Good on you. I think the stock market is overheated and overpriced. I don't see how it can continue as-is without some major "churn" in the years ahead.

Real estate market in many areas has gone crazy as well - rising interest rates are going to have an impact but my guess is that a demographic strong demand will keep prices steady unlike the speculative crash of a decade and a half ago.

As rental housing may become too expensive, we are considering buying either farmland or timberland as assets. Anyone here have experience with that?