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New Intel O-1: Carrier "ships company" VS. "squadron"

Logico

Registered User
The intel officer community manager told me that 75% of newbie intel O's go to a squadron while the other 25% go to a carrier as ships company. Does anyone know the main reasons why somebody might prefer one to another?

(of course there are other things that new intel O's do, like D.C. duty, SEAL teams, etc., but he said that this is the primary areas that they work in)
 

T.M.Gray

Registered User
I can only give advice based on second-hand information: so I guess this is someone else's $.02.

My son's academy roommate went Intel as ship's crew on a CVN. He started out an eager beaver, but wound up disillusioned. He felt he got no respect from the flight crews, who thought his information was inaccurate, untimely, useless, wrong, etc. As he was not the source of the info, only the messenger, there was nothing he could do to improve the quality of the product. So there he was, surrounded by shoes, but with no SWO pin. He was something of a Rodney Dangerfield: he "...didn't get no respect."

Had he been with a squadron, of course, he would have been with a bunch of aviators and not had wings, but his sense, my son's and mine is that as part of a squadron he would have taken less grief, or at least it would have come with less venom. We all think he would have been a happier camper in a squadron.
 

JKD

Member
I'm a former enlisted airdale (F-14 plane captain) and currently an IS1 in the reserves.

The main difference is being with a squadron you are not attached to the carrier. You only see it when you deploy. Ships company work on the ship, even when in port. I've never been attached to a ship, so it may not be that big of a deal, but I always liked going back to the air station to work rather than the ship. (Can you tell I would rather go back to a squadron?)

On the Intel side, the big question asked is "Why?". Why do I care about what you are telling me, why is the information important... It is not uncommon for the low man/new man (enlisted and officer) to be questioned on his data. The people you are briefing want to know 1) does he know what he is talking about and 2) can I trust him to give me the information I need.

I'm one of those people who has always excelled at everything I've ever done. With that said, Intel has been one of the hardest things for me to pick up on. There isn't a black and white to it, and you have to learn as you go. And there is some trial and error. You have to have thick skin when the people you are briefing (who always seem to be senior to you) tell you to sit down... or they happen to know your information is not up to date...

I think this happens in both squadrons and aboard ships.

I'm sure there are other differences some of the more experienced spooks from the fleet can expand on - like the differences in the jobs... I seem to remember another thread detailing some of this.
Check out some of FlyinSpy's post on the following thread:
http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13936
 

FlyinSpy

Mongo only pawn, in game of life...
Contributor
T.M.Gray said:
Had he been with a squadron, of course, he would have been with a bunch of aviators and not had wings, but his sense, my son's and mine is that as part of a squadron he would have taken less grief, or at least it would have come with less venom. We all think he would have been a happier camper in a squadron.

No matter how you slice it, the life of a spy is one of grief....

Unfortunately, the proper way to address this question is not "Which is better?", but "Which will suck less?" The life of an AI (that's Aviation Intell Officer, aka spy, aka booger eater, etc.) can be a hard row to hoe, either as ship's company or at the squadron level. Both have their minuses, as well as a few pluses. That's an unfortunate reality about how the 1630 community relates to the URL community. Some observations:

-Both the 13xx and the SWO (whatever their designator...) communities tend to have very poor opinions of the 1630/Intel community. A lot of this is due to the fact that good hard answers (The Kind Aviators Like!) can be hard to come by when your up against a thinking, breathing adversary. Answering the "Where are the SAMs?" question is just not that easy - for a lot of reasons. I say this a lot: intelligence is not magic.

This "lack of magic" is also the root of more disdain - the tendency of the Intel Community to lack definitive answers, and not being predictive. Many intel estimates get heavily couched in "might be's", "could be's", and past tense statements - people want accurate forecasts, not history lessons. Now, if more URL folks were chopped over to the Dark Side of Intel more times in their careers, they might come to understand why there can be such a lack of definitive info, but for now Intel takes it in the chops as being "more wrong than right."

A lot of the problem, though, is also related to the fact that we place wet-behind-the-ears O-1s into squadron AI billets, when they have essentially no understanding of how their platform is fought. They don't speak the language, and when they try they tend to sound foolish. And after 30 months, just when they might be getting up to speed on some important aspects of their jobs, boom! Time to rotate and get a new face in.

This is compounded by the fact that an AI *rarely* tells someone something they don't already know. The spy essentially can't tell anyone in a Hornet squadron anything they don't already know about adversary fighter tactics, other than maybe to read some Powerpoint bullets that someone else wrote about Kraplakistan tendencies at BVR ranges. They generally can't tell anything to a Prowler squadron about adversary EP tactics and how to overcome them - because they don't know 1% of what the ECMOs have already picked up. Again, they might *remind* aircrew of certain facts, but they rarely tell them anything new. This breeds the attitude of "This guy provides me no value added, since I could go find out whatever I need to know on SIPRNET in less time than it took to listen to this guy get it wrong." And you know what? They're not far from being wrong.

The role of the squadron level spy is essentially of a 2-way conduit: from national and below down to the aircrew in the form of intelligence briefs, and from the aircrew level back out to higher in the form of MISREPs. And that's about it, other than trying to unfvck everyone's security clearance, and making sure there's anough Diet Cokes, Pop Tarts, and fresh coffee (the much-vaunted Snack-O job). Now, in this Age of Information do you really need an *officer* to do this? Nope, a squared away 3rd class PO can handle any AI job. Putting an O-1 in a squadron is merely providing an SLJ officer to Ops, and having an extra body to stand weekend SDO duty...

The CVIC or ship's company officer is still a conduit, but to a different set of masters - the ship and the embarked battle group staff.

Being assigned to ship's company can be a good or bad deal. (Like in the squadron environment, it can be highly personality dependent). You're more of a DIV-O in a CVIC environment, and you have a few more like-minded souls to commiserate with, but then you're also dealing with the disdain of the shoes as well; SWOs tend to have little use for spies either - for most of the reasons mentioned above.

I hope I don't come across as overly negative on the life of an AI - after all, I are one. I enjoy my job a lot, and am very good at it - but then again I had 11 years professional experience in the Intel Community before I ever pinned on O-1 bars, and I had 2 years at NSAWC as an instructor before setting foot in a squadron. I think I'm good at what I do because I have a good understanding of my platform and it's mission, and I get to fly enough in the jet to really understand what matters (and what doesn't) when I'm briefing. If the Navy would change it's training and manning policy, things might be different - in fact, I wrote a big article for Proceedings a couple of months ago on just this subject; if you want a copy, PM me.
 

eddie

Working Plan B
Contributor
Are there only Intel O's on carriers because they are only needed at the battle group level? Or are Intel O's on other ships (subs?) too?
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
FlyinSpy said:
A lot of the problem, though, is also related to the fact that we place wet-behind-the-ears O-1s into squadron AI billets, when they have essentially no understanding of how their platform is fought. This is compounded by the fact that an AI *rarely* tells someone something they don't already know.
This is key. The whole purpose of the first tour Intel guy is not to be the end all be all of information to the aircrew. It is more like indoctrination training on the operational world where that young O-1 can see how things are and make the natural beginner's mistakes without screwing things up too badly. He'll also get some administrative and troop leadership experience before he goes on to a command where he'll have more responsibility and where the consequences for failure are more severe. First Intel tour is analogous in many respects to flight school for aviators. Neither environment is much like the "real world" when that person is a mid-level O-3.

BTW, tell Insley he's gay and/or getting fat. :D

Brett
 

HH-60H

Manager
pilot
Contributor
I totally agree with all of the above. Since there are some on this board who don't think I have the credentials to comment on Naval Intelligence I am currently chopped to the "dark side" and am working on degree in this subject matter.
Both Brett and FlyinSpy hit the nail on the head. Typically, AI's are first tour Ensign's and they don't know jack about ops. Even in my last squadron our spy was on his 2nd tour, but he came from a Joint level watch floor down to us. He definitely had a much better perspective on the Navy and was much more resourceful (having more experience) than a first tour guy, but for awhile he was so far behind the power curve in what HS was and did that it took most of his tour to catch up, but he busted his a** to do it. Part of this came from the fact that he was the first AI in our squadron in about a decade (they got rid of them for some reason, but we got them back as S-3's went away) so the 1630 community forgot how to support HS. But the rest was just trying to learn all about the warfare missions we did and the intelligence we needed, which are totally different from the rest of the Airwing.

Where I think AI's could be a huge boon to the their squadrons comes from their professional knowledge. It would be great if the spy gave some sort of brief on the fundamentals of intelligence. What are the INTs? What is the intel cycle? How do the Service intel agencies support the Services? etc. Sure this might be extraneous info to the nugget, but to the more senior JO's and DH's this would be great for professional development. Now it might make sense to aviators why intel is sometimes wrong, why we photo rig, etc. We have this resource in the squadron to teach about a gigantic portion of the military and US govt and it goes untapped. These guys spend 6 mos learning this stuff and nearly nothing about the squadron they are reporting to.

Another way I think AI's can be a huge asset to the squadron is again their knowledge of intelligence and professional resources. My old AI knew the best places on SIPR to find all the great gouge on what we needed, much better than the rest of us (HS East does/did not have SIPR in the squadron, so the only time we get it is on the boat). Also he generally should have an idea of who he can contact when he needs more info. (Interestingly enough, I don't think NIOBC studs actually meet with folks from Ops Analysis) SIPR is great, but there are other places to get better info, and while this connectivity might be limited, the contacts shore side can assist in getting it to SIPR. These contacts can also stay in touch and send out the "latest and greatest". Now that I am in the "dark side" I am surprised how slowly pertinent, useful, and important intel makes it to the fleet. Stuff that is published, that Big Navy and the IC know about, but the operators who need to know don't (I don't if this is the case with pointy nosers, but it is with HS/HSL, who traditionally have poor intel support) In addition he should know how to drive collection requirements and other processes to collect or get the info his squadron needs. From my experience, AI's do not do this.
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Agreed. And standby to get "tried on for size" by the Ready Room. One of our "spies" was top of his class at Denver Intel finishing school and the USAF Colonel shook his hand and said. "I'm truly sorry you're going to a fighter squadron; this is a real waste of your intellect. I hope you survive the experience!" So he was predisposed for the worst and little gunshy of public speaking. He did go through culture shock of enduring all the jokes and jabs when he tried to teach us Recognition (massive onslaughts of wadded paper or other challenges to his composure as he tried to differentiate the different then Soviet subs). Kinda like "Animal House" frat meeting.

Putting all the aviators into a Ready Room for an AOM regardless of reason is alot like Comedy Club "open mike" anyway (in most squadrons). It's not just the spies who get rock tumbled. Everyone is a target including the CO/XO (if there is a healthy command climate). If the "spies" work diligently, they do earn respect (and a callsign) amd may even get some fllight time as a reward for their hard work and help them get a better feel for the mission(s) they support.

As to ship's company vs airwing/squadron, there are several factors at play. When not at sea, the spy stays with the squadron ashore, which I believe is better quality of life...(want to stay duty on the ship and have to potentially sleep aboard and do you want to park a bazillion miles away from your workplace?). The squadron spy has an intel network with the other squadron spies and the CAG Intel Officer that is very useful for keeping the squadron up to speed on events...with SIPRnet, the aviators can do a lot of datamining and research on their own, but Intel guys always have an edge on resources. At sea, the Intel folks operate out of CVIC and the squadron and ship's company spies are like a big intel enterprise. If CVIC Intel Officer and CAG Intel are in sync, the spies get rotation into all the right watches and assignments to round off their training while performing meaningful work (like debriefing aircrews just like they did back in WWII and ever since). Does CVIC give priority to their spies? Maybe, but there's lots of work to do and I've seen so many bright 0-1/2s really grow in a short period of time. Take heed of earlier posts on rank.....I had an ensign Intel officer when I was TARPS O who tried to "order" the TARPS W-4 to CVIC and demanded to be called sir. Note: Don't mess with Warrants (or chiefs) and give them their due...they give you your's when and if you earn it...otherwise they can really teach you a lesson in manners the hard way. Don't worry about being the snack O or SLJO, it may happen. It may not. You might be the Bull Ensign or be in charge of safeguarding the squadron mascot (most junior officer gets that important job..it's part of rites of passage).
 

Cornellianintel

Registered User
Thanks for the great posts. In all honesty, it does sound like a pretty pessimistic view of the job at first glance. Placed in the context of necessary hands-on training, however, I don't guess we'll get any more flak than other JOs. I'm still looking forward to serving wherever I can.

Best
 

HH-60H

Manager
pilot
Contributor
Cornellianintel said:
Thanks for the great posts. In all honesty, it does sound like a pretty pessimistic view of the job at first glance. Placed in the context of necessary hands-on training, however, I don't guess we'll get any more flak than other JOs. I'm still looking forward to serving wherever I can.

Best

Maybe it is a tough first tour, but like heyjoe said if you work hard your squadron/shipmates will respect you and it will all work out. Besides intel types go do all kinds of other cool jobs all around the world. And 1630 sea/shore rotation is something to be envious of.
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Cornellianintel said:
Thanks for the great posts. In all honesty, it does sound like a pretty pessimistic view of the job at first glance. Placed in the context of necessary hands-on training, however, I don't guess we'll get any more flak than other JOs. I'm still looking forward to serving wherever I can.

Best

Everyone in the Ready Room is a target. If you like gladiator movies, you'll do fine! I wouldn't go into this thinking it will suck. Everyone gets rock tumbled. Just have a sense of humor and you'll likely enjoy the experience. Happy New Year.
 

FlyinSpy

Mongo only pawn, in game of life...
Contributor
Cornellianintel said:
Thanks for the great posts. In all honesty, it does sound like a pretty pessimistic view of the job at first glance. Placed in the context of necessary hands-on training, however, I don't guess we'll get any more flak than other JOs. I'm still looking forward to serving wherever I can.

I certainly don't want to paint an overly bleak picture - as was mentioned, life in the ready room can be a pretty tough existence for anyone, skipper thru DH thru nuggets. No quarter asked nor given. Spies have it especially tough in these assignments, though, because they are a) usually the most junior O in the squadron, and b) are an "army of one". Everyone else has a peer group of pilots or NFOs to rely on, while the spy is on his/her own.

Also, the aviation side of this business is somewhat unique for the intel folks - once they "get their ticket punched" with a fleet tour, they can go back into the loving embrance of Mother ONI, or the big intel production centers where they are much more at home. Intel shore tours are where 1630s are most at home, whereas sea tours are more like "necessary evils". Not my perspective, by the way, just one I get from the community as a whole.

If you like the tactical side of the business, are a quick study, and can roll with the punches, you can have a great time as a squadron spy. If you're an introvert who hates to be laughed at and takes yourself way too seriously, you are in trouble. While I was at NSAWC I observed or taught just about every AI in the business over a two year period. It was easy to tell when their squadrons liked and respected their intel bubbas (not common, but it happened); when they more or less just put up with them (often); and when the spies walked around with a "kick me" sign hanging on their back (more often than I was happy with).

Just go into the job with your eyes open - those who seem to get most disillusioned are the poli-sci types who think that squadron life will be a bunch of guys sitting around debating geopolitics, or discussing tactics. They are shocked when "most recent bowel movements" (sometimes with accompanying photos...) are a hot topic, or seem surprised that a bunch of grown men still think farts are funny. And maybe that should be the biggest filter for new squadron spies: If you don't think farts are funny, you're headed into a tough assignment....
 

Cornellianintel

Registered User
FlyinSpy said:
I certainly don't want to paint an overly bleak picture - as was mentioned, life in the ready room can be a pretty tough existence for anyone, skipper thru DH thru nuggets. No quarter asked nor given. Spies have it especially tough in these assignments, though, because they are a) usually the most junior O in the squadron, and b) are an "army of one". Everyone else has a peer group of pilots or NFOs to rely on, while the spy is on his/her own.

Also, the aviation side of this business is somewhat unique for the intel folks - once they "get their ticket punched" with a fleet tour, they can go back into the loving embrance of Mother ONI, or the big intel production centers where they are much more at home. Intel shore tours are where 1630s are most at home, whereas sea tours are more like "necessary evils". Not my perspective, by the way, just one I get from the community as a whole.

If you like the tactical side of the business, are a quick study, and can roll with the punches, you can have a great time as a squadron spy. If you're an introvert who hates to be laughed at and takes yourself way too seriously, you are in trouble. While I was at NSAWC I observed or taught just about every AI in the business over a two year period. It was easy to tell when their squadrons liked and respected their intel bubbas (not common, but it happened); when they more or less just put up with them (often); and when the spies walked around with a "kick me" sign hanging on their back (more often than I was happy with).

Just go into the job with your eyes open - those who seem to get most disillusioned are the poli-sci types who think that squadron life will be a bunch of guys sitting around debating geopolitics, or discussing tactics. They are shocked when "most recent bowel movements" (sometimes with accompanying photos...) are a hot topic, or seem surprised that a bunch of grown men still think farts are funny. And maybe that should be the biggest filter for new squadron spies: If you don't think farts are funny, you're headed into a tough assignment....


Thanks for the great advice all around. I think that getting prepared for and having an understanding of what my actual job will be should help tremendously in the acclimation process. I'll keep doing my homework as best I can to gain a meaningful grasp of how the AI can best serve his squadron. You guys have been a really great help in this area.

Happy New Year to you and your families!
 

HH-60H

Manager
pilot
Contributor
FlyinSpy said:
If you don't think farts are funny, you're headed into a tough assignment....

That is so true.

The two groups of 1630's that get me are:

1. The poor bastards who walk around with the "kick me" signs. They are always talking about their latest adventures in Everqueer and whatever else. They are nice guys, but too goofy, sometimes I feel sorry for them.

2. The ones that think they are this sh!t, especially because they have a Poli Sci degree and 2 years in the Navy. The think they are experts in all things Navy and Intel.

All in all most I have met are really good guys, real hard workers who usually deserve more credit than they get.
 
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