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New Initiatives from SECNAV

OnTopTime

ROBO TACCO
None
I had more responsibility and freedom as an unwinged Ensign at Advanced than I did as a winged JG in the fleet. Maybe the TRACOMs mindset of cranking out production pushed alot of the bullshit to the back burner, but we waste more time on stupid chickenshit than we do on actual training. Been to a safety stand down lately? I'll save you 8 hours and sum it up for you: don't drink and drive, don't rape your colleagues, and don't get arrested for being a drunk asshole. That kind of shit actually gets pretty insulting to the 99% of us who it doesn't affect after a while.

I'm married with no kids. I take a bunch of hits already on the "well, you don't have kids so this dets not that big a deal for you" side; if I were single, I'd definitely be even more pissed off. Oh, you mean I just have to get my wife knocked up and I get a year off with bennies? Sign me up. Retarded. We ask enough of the people in the Navy. Asking more of the ones who've already sacrificed a family so the ones who didn't can spend more time with theirs is a pile of horseshit.

This kind of shit reeks of yes men at the top not wanting to upset the apple cart.

I'm proud of my time in the canoe club, and I don't mind deploying or doing my mission, but chicken shit like this isn't the Navy I thought I was joining.

I don't disagree with you, but if you think that you're going to get away from the inane BS that you're talking about by jumping ship and finding another employer, I'm telling you that's not likely to happen. Are there better things to do while earning a paycheck than fly Navy aircraft? Sure, but those jobs are few and far between. In the grand scheme of things, if you're wearing wings of gold, the grass is very likely not greener on the other side.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Yes, along with two other issues. I'm considering getting a track bike, but after dealing with the pain of doing stupid classes and endless paperwork I'll no longer be riding on the road. Of course, the two other bigger reasons would be 1) Witnessing three fatalities on the roads around Austin one spring afternoon, and 2) Putting a 500hp V10 2 seat roadster in the garage.

And the classes may be beneficial for new riders, but I've learned nothing in the classes that I've taken. And yes, I approached them with an open mind.
I've been riding for nearly 20 years and I always benefit from the classes, YMMV. You probably roll your eyes at IGS too, but the classes are a good refresher and opportunity for those who's job it is to focus on motorcycle (or flight) safety to put out new info, techniques and lessons learned.
 

pilot_man

Ex-Rhino driver
pilot
Ummm, for the career sabbatical stuff, the reserves regularly deal with bringing people back from civilian life, mobilizing them, spending money retraining them... (minus the Tricare part during their time when they're not in uniform) and, for that matter, tactical coincidental med downs on the eve of deployment. Just throwing that out there.

This doesn't seem like it will work very well with aviators in an active duty squadron. Especially concerning timing.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor

The problem you described sounds like a failure of the CPOs and 1st Classes to articulate proper expectations of professional performance.

Articulate the expectations, train them how to meet them, and then expect them to make every reasonable effort to meet the expectations of performance (professional and personal). When those few individuals who can't do that fail - hammer them.

I can only imagine the sentiment felt by (spitballing here) the other 95% of Sailors who are doing things right, yet have to blow to get into their workcenter. Its a trust issue - and this indicates of total lack of it.
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
The problem you described sounds like a failure of the CPOs and 1st Classes to articulate proper expectations of professional performance.

Articulate the expectations, train them how to meet them, and then expect them to make every reasonable effort to meet the expectations of performance (professional and personal). When those few individuals who can't do that fail - hammer them.

We got a bingo! Almost all of the problems we've been talking about are. Point is, there has been a deck plate leadership failure...O's included. When that happens, you get top down solutions. Don't forget to pound the @#$%ups. WE DON'T DO THIS! When was the last time you read an E-5 eval that said "not recommended for retention"?
 

PhrogLoop

Adulting is hard
pilot
The problem you described sounds like a failure of the CPOs and 1st Classes to articulate proper expectations of professional performance.

Articulate the expectations, train them how to meet them, and then expect them to make every reasonable effort to meet the expectations of performance (professional and personal). When those few individuals who can't do that fail - hammer them.

I can only imagine the sentiment felt by (spitballing here) the other 95% of Sailors who are doing things right, yet have to blow to get into their workcenter. Its a trust issue - and this indicates of total lack of it.
I could not agree with you more...we had a shitty Chief's Mess and my efforts were an intentional way to communicate directly to my troops while delegating specific responsibilities to my Chief and First Class. PM me if you want details, but all the pain I imposed and documented saved my ass on 3 different occasions that deployment.
 

bert

Enjoying the real world
pilot
Contributor
I could not agree with you more...we had a shitty Chief's Mess and my efforts were an intentional way to communicate directly to my troops while delegating specific responsibilities to my Chief and First Class. PM me if you want details, but all the pain I imposed and documented saved my ass on 3 different occasions that deployment.

The specific scenario of the SAR right out of port that PL mentioned before comes from the incident where a likely still-drunk OIC put himself in the aircraft on a SAR over the objections of his JO's right as they were leaving port.

The breathalyzer thing is stupid and reactionary, but anybody with a little bit of time in can see it is just a natural evolution of policies already in place (looking at you, seventh fleet liberty regs). Folks will eat this turd - just like all the turds that came before it - because it is the cost of doing business in our current command climate.
 

jbuck387

Gene Police: You!! Out Of The Pool!
pilot
http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2008-05/worse-crime-mistake
A great article that pretty much sums up my feelings for most of this policy. I'm not a fan of the intrusive leadership. Not that I support showing up to work drunk, but on the odd-ball chance someone shows up and turns a wrench on the plane drunk, the failure is at a low level within that shop (Chiefs, LPOs, CDIs, and supervisors) not a big Navy failure. Instead we introduce flaming hoops for everyone to do back flips through. I see the progression that this came from, but that doesn't make the mind set behind it okay.
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Threadjack not intended, but consider this. If Obamacare is upheld by the Supreme Court this is what you will have for the entire nation. Everything will be tied to personal health and fitness vs the cost of heath care to the federal government. I am not kidding here. Too much alcohol drinking a national health issue, restrict it or penalize those who consume over a certain state determined amount. Bike accidents cause expensive head injuries, require helmets. Too many obese people will cost the government in terms of heart disease, so ban junk food. Salt causing hypertension, mandate low sodium levels in prepared foods. Employing over XXX people, provide mandatory fitness center or gym membership. Once the government is in charge of health care nothing about your personal life will be untouchable. It will all be in the interests of reducing costs. Healthy citizens require less health care. What Mabus is talking about is just the same, only he has the force of military orders to make it happen. His justifications need not be realistic or rational. He orders it. For the rest of the country, only the Supreme Court stands in the way of the same thing.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Threadjack not intended, but consider this. If Obamacare is upheld by the Supreme Court this is what you will have for the entire nation. Everything will be tied to personal health and fitness vs the cost of heath care to the federal government. I am not kidding here. Too much alcohol drinking a national health issue, restrict it or penalize those who consume over a certain state determined amount. Bike accidents cause expensive head injuries, require helmets. Too many obese people will cost the government in terms of heart disease, so ban junk food. Salt causing hypertension, mandate low sodium levels in prepared foods. Employing over XXX people, provide mandatory fitness center or gym membership. Once the government is in charge of health care nothing about your personal life will be untouchable. It will all be in the interests of reducing costs. Healthy citizens require less health care. What Mabus is talking about is just the same, only he has the force of military orders to make it happen. His justifications need not be realistic or rational. He orders it. For the rest of the country, only the Supreme Court stands in the way of the same thing.
Is ther any precedent for that here or in other countries who have had true nationalized healthcare? I don't know the answer to that, but I'd look at Canada, the UK and France. If those liberal bastions aren't resorting to those kinds of nanny-state tactics, I suspect we probably won't either. Anyone have experience with that?
 

pourts

former Marine F/A-18 pilot & FAC, current MBA stud
pilot
Alright...not to be the guy who says "Man, this colored drink is delicious..." but...

First off, none of this is policy yet. Did the last duty section you mustered have to blow into a breathalyzer? I didn't think so. Does your command own a breathalyzer? I also, didn't think so. Everybody cool out for a minute. Long story short, I'll believe it when I see it.

Motorcycle stuff...Well, do you guys really wonder why we're paying more attention to it? We killed or seriously injured more folks on motorcycles last year (by a large margin) than we did during flight mishaps or AGM's. From a former (just) Wing Safety Officer, I can tell you that the majority of those people were fucking up. The vast majority of the injuries and mishaps occurred to people riding under the table, riding without required safety equipment, shattering traffic laws (by that I mean riding a stand-up at 100...) or not complying with the current program. Don't want a top down solution? Then come up with a bottom up solution. The reason that we are hearing about this is because we (I say we as a collective "at the command level") have failed to execute the motorcycle program we have...so yeah, the top down solution is to make it harder to ride. Don't like it? Fix it. Stop guys you know who aren't current with training. Talk to people who you know who act like morons on motorcycles. Why? 1) Because its your f#$%ing job as an Officer and 2) Because there ass-clownery makes it harder for you to ride. You say we can't fix stupid? That's true...but commands sure as shit can say to the identified stupid "Stay off a motorcycle or go to NJP."

This reminds me of the gun control argument. If you make it illegal to have guns, the world will be safer, right?

No. You will still have criminals who break the law and procure guns. Likewise, you can make as many motorcycle rules as you want, but you will still have people who disobey them and get hurt.
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
This reminds me of the gun control argument. If you make it illegal to have guns, the world will be safer, right?

No. You will still have criminals who break the law and procure guns. Likewise, you can make as many motorcycle rules as you want, but you will still have people who disobey them and get hurt.

That's funny...couldn't agree more. I almost typed this exact example in my OP but it was getting a bit long and preachy anyway.

I'm not saying that either gun control or more motorcycle restrictions are the right answer to either problem...what I am saying is that these policies are a natural top down reaction to the fact that we still have a huge problem with people dying on motorcycles and in gun violence. If we consistently called morons to task about motorcycle stupidity, (have an accident when you're not in compliance with regs you go to NJP and pay for your own medical expenses etc...) people would stop fucking it up. Until we do that, you will continue to see stupid policies that don't have a prayer of fixing anything.
 

BigIron

Remotely piloted
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2008-05/worse-crime-mistake
A great article that pretty much sums up my feelings for most of this policy. I'm not a fan of the intrusive leadership. Not that I support showing up to work drunk, but on the odd-ball chance someone shows up and turns a wrench on the plane drunk, the failure is at a low level within that shop (Chiefs, LPOs, CDIs, and supervisors) not a big Navy failure. Instead we introduce flaming hoops for everyone to do back flips through. I see the progression that this came from, but that doesn't make the mind set behind it okay.
Great article. Thanks for posting.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
First off, none of this is policy yet. Did the last duty section you mustered have to blow into a breathalyzer? I didn't think so. Does your command own a breathalyzer? I also, didn't think so. Everybody cool out for a minute. Long story short, I'll believe it when I see it.

Field tested throughout PACOM. Have also seen them handed out to liberty buddies leaving the ship.

From a former (just) Wing Safety Officer, I can tell you that the majority of those people were fucking up. The vast majority of the injuries and mishaps occurred to people riding under the table, riding without required safety equipment, shattering traffic laws (by that I mean riding a stand-up at 100...) or not complying with the current program.

From a former airwing safety officer (if those things matter for anything :rolleyes:) I can tell you that leadership recognizes that there are stupid people out there and all the training in the world isn't going to save some of them. What matters is whether the command had a program in place to assist those riders who chose to responsibly follow the rules and regulations established. Your quote above kinda helps this point along.

The reason that we are hearing about this is because we (I say we as a collective "at the command level") have failed to execute the motorcycle program we have...so yeah, the top down solution is to make it harder to ride. Don't like it? Fix it. Stop guys you know who aren't current with training. Talk to people who you know who act like morons on motorcycles. Why? 1) Because its your f#$%ing job as an Officer and 2) Because there ass-clownery makes it harder for you to ride. You say we can't fix stupid? That's true...but commands sure as shit can say to the identified stupid "Stay off a motorcycle or go to NJP."

Some good points here, but it all boils down to individuals making decisions. Its the same thing with DUIs - you can have all the training in the world, have free ride cards, have buddies out with each other, have safety stand downs with gory pictures, tell 'em about the fines - yadda yada yadda until you're blue in the face. Some dickhead is still going to go out and drive drunk. Do you see a DUI as an indicator of a program that has failed to execute well - like you do with the motorcycle statement above?

A local command just returned to CONUS after being attached FDNF for next to forever. They recognized that their folks were at a higher risk for DUIs as many of them had not driven in years, or simply were scared off by Japan's .00 BAC laws. So they spent more than three hours at a SSD late last week where all they talked about were DUIs. You see what's coming here right? They had a dude get a DUI this weekend (might have been that night). Why am I to believe that he wouldn't have done some equally stupid with a motorcycle - and how have I failed if he does?

I'll even add that the more training you provide to people (within reason), the easier it is to crush them when they do F it away on a bike or with boozing at the wheel. We have made so many options available to the Sailors at my command that a DUI at this point is just natural selection at work. Last one (which thankfully was several months ago) was a civilian within two weeks - there were some other circumstances at play, but my point is that it makes the decision making process a lot easier when you accept that sometimes you just can't help stupid.
 
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