Navy Reserve COVID Vaccinations by October

[Python]

They’re mRNA signaling, delivered in a shot. They contain no live, dead, or partial pathogen. Instead, they are gene signals to your body to deliver data that can help the body fight a pathogen that it has never yet encountered in live, dead, or partial form.

I’m not saying they aren’t useful. I’m not saying they can’t provide equivalent benefits to an actual vaccine. I’m not saying it won’t save someone’s life against a virus. It’s just technically not a vaccine.

I think the JJ one is a vaccine. Not sure about Sinovax or Sputnik, but they’re probably vaccines too.

Yeah I’m aware of what it does. Just interesting how you frame it. For all practical purposes, a vaccine being something that triggers an immune response to develop an immunity is a perfectly fine definition. If you’re going to say that the mRNA shots aren’t vaccines for all intents and purposes because they don’t have the pathogen, then that’s peak pedantic and pointless.

If from now on on Airwarriors somebody says “vaccines” and they mean both the mRNA and traditional ones, please do everyone a favor and don’t “aCtUaLlY” them. There’s no point. The person is not trying to convey the message of a pathogen or not, they’re conveying a message of artificial immunity.

 

[taxi1]

I think the JJ one is a vaccine.

The J&J works the same as the mRNA ones, it just uses a virus to sneak the RNA code into your cells. The RNA tells your body to make the spike protein that the body loves to learn to hate. With the mRNA vaccine they skip the “sneak it in using a modified virus” part and just put the code snippet in directly. Sounds a lot more controllable to me.

Both trick your body into making the thing you are to be immune to, rather than inserting it directly.

 

[Tycho_Brohe]

Can’t tell if you’re joking or not. Either way, I lol’d bc Lebowski voice.
View attachment 33418

The mRNA signaling shots are vaccines like NFOs are pilots.

Not joking, but I never pass up a Big Lebowski reference.

Merriam-Webster and Oxford seem to have a more expanded definition which would include the novel mRNA shots as well as viral vector shots like J&J and Oxford. The word "vaccine" originally referred specifically to use of inactivated cowpox to inoculate against smallpox (vacca = cow in Latin), but Louis Pasteur recommended expanding the definitions about 90 years later to include other new inoculations. It's been about 140 years since then, and perhaps it's time for the definition to grow once more to reflect new technology.

 

[bubblehead]

For those curious about Reserve folks declining the COVID vaccine... To save the time with ADSEP boards, our NOSC is negotiating General discharges for those who are refusing the vaccine.

Eligibility for Benefits Chart

NOSC Houston apparently has the highest refusal rate at about 50% which is not surprising given the location.

 

[UInavy]

….people should be free to make their own medical decisions.

Again, we agree! They just need to be aware of and ready to face the consequences of their decisions.

 

[Mirage]

For those curious about Reserve folks declining the COVID vaccine... To save the time with ADSEP boards, our NOSC is negotiating General discharges for those who are refusing the vaccine.

Eligibility for Benefits Chart

NOSC Houston apparently has the highest refusal rate at about 50% which is not surprising given the location.

What is the advantage to the sailor for accepting a general discharge without an ADSEP board? The worst outcome they can get according to the NAVADMIN is a general... So seems like accepting that worst case in some drug deal would make no sense.

 

[bubblehead]

What is the advantage to the sailor for accepting a general discharge without an ADSEP board? The worst outcome they can get according to the NAVADMIN is a general... So seems like accepting that worst case in some drug deal would make no sense.

It's not a drug deal. ADSEP boards are a pain in the a** and involve a lot of time, paperwork, and coordination to conduct (I sit on many). The recommendations of the ADSEP board then have to go to NOSC CO, then to PERS for final determination.

IMHO, doing it this way -- negotiating that the Sailor bypass the ADSEP board -- is a time saver to get to the same result. I've seen the same for folks who pop positive for a second time (i.e., the first time they popped positive the ADSEP board found no basis for discharge and Sailor continued to serve).

 

[sevenhelmet]

No serious employer is even hinting at offering this. It’s get the mRNA shot or get fired, in their eyes. Many employees are pleading to be given this option. Employers don’t care. It’s not a cost thing, either, weirdly - the cost of replacing 1 FTE on my program is about $20-50k, give or take. That includes lost revenue from a gapped billet.

My employer, a defense contractor, has granted exemptions. They make it enough of a pain in the ass to wash out the “I just don’t wanna” crowd, but I have at least a couple of co-workers with approved exemptions from the vaccine. It’s not exactly free choice, but it’s not as cut-and-dried as “get the shot or get fired”. In fact, the CEO held out as long as he could and gave people as many off ramps as possible, to include reassignment to non-defense portions of the company (where practical.) I believe my employer is doing what it can, given its position.

That said, I also believe the mandate is executive overreach that puts a lot of employers in a nasty position when talent is already at a premium.

The really weird one is small subcontractors for defense companies, like the guy who comes in to maintain our flight equipment. I’m still not sure what their requirements are under the president’s mandate.

Finally, I’m still surprised more people aren’t talking about the conformity issue with “Comirnaty”. It’s my understanding that technically a vaccine isn’t FDA approved unless it’s labeling is consistent with the approved formulation. So… with that labeling still not available in the US, how is it legal to force people to take the vaccine? At minimum, I believe mandates aren’t legally enforceable until the vaccine is available under the “Comirnaty” label. What am I missing here?

 

[Treetop Flyer]

It's not a drug deal. ADSEP boards are a pain in the a** and involve a lot of time, paperwork, and coordination to conduct (I sit on many). The recommendations of the ADSEP board then have to go to NOSC CO, then to PERS for final determination.

IMHO, doing it this way -- negotiating that the Sailor bypass the ADSEP board -- is a time saver to get to the same result.

Sounds like it’s in their best interest to choose the board. That way it will further increase readiness.

 

[Spekkio]

I was too lazy to write what you very eloquently said. I think once you decide that bodies of experts (CDC, FDA, etc…) are untrustworthy, the internet makes it too easy to cherry pick the Dr Oz of the day and cherry pick whatever facts reinforce your view. Does anyone here really think we can show Treetop or the others anything that will change their minds?

We really need to stop the attitude that people who eschew the vaccine are completely out to lunch. There are a myriad of reasons to be skeptical of taking the vaccine:

• We have a disease that has a mortality rate that is heavily age dependent, so if you're under 50 you've got really, really good odds of being completely fine without any vaccination whatsoever.
• We have a legitimate counting problem with fatalities. For example, did Colin Powell die of COVID-19, or did he die of something else while he also had COVID-19?
• States and counties are not consistent in the way they collect data. For example, the state of NH fluctuated by 300-400% in case count in the last 2 weeks.
• The party line is that the vaccine is totally safe and effective, yet information keeps changing about it.
  • The graph of case count over the last 6 months looks a lot like it did around last winter, and the overall CFR still remains about 1.5%, despite the fact that roughly half of Americans were fully vaccinated when this wave started.
  • At first it was advertised that the vaccine imparted long-term immunity, but now it looks like the half-life is roughly 3-6 months.
  • Last spring the vaccine prevented spread...but now it doesn't.
  • The vaccine protects against variants, but now we need a booster.
  • People who were vaccinated can go about their business. But now they still need to wear masks, get tested frequently, and are encouraged to socially distance...so what's the point?
  • No side effects... but when I got the booster, the CVS website had a big warning about myocarditis in those under 29, and had me digitally sign a health waiver.
• The CDC has completely ruined its credibility on multiple occasions, demonstrating that its guidance is at least partially political:
  • Two weeks to 'flatten the curve.' Doesn't look very flat right now.
  • "Super spreader events" aren't actually a real thing.
  • People were told last year that natural immunity doesn't work, even though that nugget is contrary to decades worth of immunology research.
  • The CDC is still recommending mask wear without any of the other NPIs that actually make masks effective (stay at home orders, minimizing occupancy, keep away from other people, etc.). Wearing a mask to be escorted to a table at a restaurant doesn't do anything. Wearing a mask at work in a full building where you take it off for coffee breaks and lunch doesn't do anything. Making children wear masks at school is stupid.
  • A non-zero amount of Americans are frustrated at losing their livelihood and damaging their children's education to comply with the CDC's stay-at-home orders, which we now know were completely unnecessary.
  • Why are children being encouraged to get a vaccine when they're more likely to choke to death on a PB&J sandwich?
  • FDA senior personnel resigned because the CDC was over-stepping its bounds.

At the end of the day, if you believe the vaccine protects against COVID-19 then get it, and rest easy to know that you probably won't die from COVID-19. Whether the person next to you gets it or not really doesn't impact your life, unless our political leadership makes that the case by imposing restrictions on what people can and cannot do based on immunization status.

Here's a question I would like to see President Biden, Dr. Fauci, and a myriad of other democrats who support COVID-19 restrictions answer ... what does the path to normal look like, and what is the plan to get there?

 

[Python]

We really need to stop the attitude that people who eschew the vaccine are completely out to lunch. There are a myriad of reasons to be skeptical of taking the vaccine:

• We have a disease that has a mortality rate that is heavily age dependent, so if you're under 50 you've got really, really good odds of being completely fine without any vaccination whatsoever.
• We have a legitimate counting problem with fatalities. For example, did Colin Powell die of COVID-19, or did he die of something else while he also had COVID-19?
• States and counties are not consistent in the way they collect data. For example, the state of NH fluctuated by 300-400% in case count in the last 2 weeks.
• The party line is that the vaccine is totally safe and effective, yet information keeps changing about it.
  • The graph of case count over the last 6 months looks a lot like it did around last winter, and the overall CFR still remains about 1.5%, despite the fact that roughly half of Americans were fully vaccinated when this wave started.
  • At first it was advertised that the vaccine imparted long-term immunity, but now it looks like the half-life is roughly 3-6 months.
  • Last spring the vaccine prevented spread...but now it doesn't.
  • The vaccine protects against variants, but now we need a booster.
  • People who were vaccinated can go about their business. But now they still need to wear masks, get tested frequently, and are encouraged to socially distance...so what's the point?
• The CDC has completely ruined its credibility on multiple occasions, demonstrating that its guidance is at least partially political:
  • Two weeks to 'flatten the curve.' Doesn't look very flat right now.
  • People were told last year that natural immunity doesn't work, even though that nugget is contrary to decades worth of immunology research.
  • The CDC is still recommending mask wear without any of the other NPIs that actually make masks effective (stay at home orders, minimizing occupancy, keep away from other people, etc.). Wearing a mask to be escorted to a table at a restaurant doesn't do anything. Wearing a mask at work in a full building where you take it off for coffee breaks and lunch doesn't do anything.
  • A non-zero amount of Americans are frustrated at losing their livelihood and damaging their children's education to comply with the CDC's stay-at-home orders, which we now know were completely unnecessary.
  • Why are children being encouraged to get a vaccine when they're more likely to choke to death on a PB&J sandwich?

At the end of the day, if you believe the vaccine protects against COVID-19 then get it, and rest easy to know that you probably won't die from COVID-19. Whether the person next to you gets it or not really doesn't impact your life, unless our political leadership makes that the case by imposing restrictions on what people can and cannot do based on immunization status.

Those are all valid reasons that it’s healthy to be skeptical of needing to take the vaccine. @vxc961 and I were addressing skepticism about safety (those that feel the shot doesn’t have enough safety data now, have an inflated high likelihood of adverse effects, will alter your DNA, turn you into a zombie, etc). I like your post, but it’s not what we were talking about.

 

[Spekkio]

Those are all valid reasons that it’s healthy to be skeptical of needing to take the vaccine. @vxc961 and I were addressing skepticism about safety (those that feel the shot doesn’t have enough safety data now, have an inflated high likelihood of adverse effects, will alter your DNA, turn you into a zombie, etc). I like your post, but it’s not what we were talking about.

I think that people jump to assumptions that vaccine hesitancy must be rooted in unreasonable beliefs about adverse side-effects, rather than all of the other reasonable excuses not to get it. But aside from that, the CVS website did have a warning about myocarditis and had me sign a liability waiver.

 

[bubblehead]

We really need to stop the attitude that people who eschew the vaccine are completely out to lunch.

No one is out to lunch. Military people cannot cherry pick, especially in light of our other requirements where there is zero outrage or discussion of "rights" or whateverthefck. This whole thing is a political sh1t show.



Vaccines by AOR for those with short-term memories.

 

[Mirage]

It's not a drug deal. ADSEP boards are a pain in the a** and involve a lot of time, paperwork, and coordination to conduct (I sit on many). The recommendations of the ADSEP board then have to go to NOSC CO, then to PERS for final determination.

IMHO, doing it this way -- negotiating that the Sailor bypass the ADSEP board -- is a time saver to get to the same result. I've seen the same for folks who pop positive for a second time (i.e., the first time they popped positive the ADSEP board found no basis for discharge and Sailor continued to serve).

Negotiating with folks to give up their right to an ADSEP board is a drug deal by my definition. But regardless what you want to call it.. my question remains.. why would a sailor give up their right to a board in exchange for... Accelerating their loss of salary/benefits and guaranteeing they get the worst characterization possible? Serious question. I don't get it.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Negotiating with folks to give up their right to an ADSEP board is a drug deal by my definition. But regardless what you want to call it.. my question remains.. why would a sailor give up their right to a board in exchange for... Accelerating their loss of salary/benefits and guaranteeing they get the worst characterization possible? Serious question. I don't get it.

To save time for people who like to say “fuck em”