Navy HR Contacting IRR Folks...

[samguitar]

Forgive my ignorance, but this question has been bothering me. What about the reserve retirement for the guys that are quitting SELRES and going IRR to avoid a MOB? Are they giving up on the big payoff just a few years from the finish line, or is there generally some beaten path to completing the requirement, such as earning points in the IRR, going ANG, re-affiliating with another SELRES unit, etc.?

 

[Gatordev]

WRT a VADM being a "selres", does it really matter since they've likely gotten into sanctuary already, so they are more AD than anything else...

That was kind of my point when I mentioned SELTARs being about the same as FTS.

 

[Flash]

Forgive my ignorance, but this question has been bothering me. What about the reserve retirement for the guys that are quitting SELRES and going IRR to avoid a MOB? Are they giving up on the big payoff just a few years from the finish line, or is there generally some beaten path to completing the requirement, such as earning points in the IRR, going ANG, re-affiliating with another SELRES unit, etc.?

In the Navy reserve you can gain enough points in the IRR by taking online courses or through funeral details along with a few other odds and ends to get good years for retirement. There used to not be a limit to how many years you could do this but the policy is shifting, at least in practice, to try and limit that to three years though I haven't seen any official guidance on that yet. The number of courses eligible for points though has dropped quite a bit and it is harder to get points that way now (there is another thread on that very subject on this forum).

So no, dropping to the IRR doesn't mean these folks are giving up on retirement but it is incumbent upon the individual they make sure to get a 'good year' to qualify for retirement and has become more challenging to do so with recent changes. I imagine quite a few though won't even bother, at least from what I have seen with folks going IRR.

 

[nittany03]

In the Navy reserve you can gain enough points in the IRR by taking online courses or through funeral details along with a few other odds and ends to get good years for retirement. There used to not be a limit to how many years you could do this but the policy is shifting, at least in practice, to try and limit that to three years though I haven't seen any official guidance on that yet. The number of courses eligible for points though has dropped quite a bit and it is harder to get points that way now (there is another thread on that very subject on this forum).

So no, dropping to the IRR doesn't mean these folks are giving up on retirement but it is incumbent upon the individual they make sure to get a 'good year' to qualify for retirement and has become more challenging to do so with recent changes. I imagine quite a few though won't even bother, at least from what I have seen with folks going IRR.

Keeping in mind (I know you know this Flash, but for others) that the IRR actually consists of two parts, the VTU and the ASP. Members of the VTU (Volunteer Training Unit) drill for points only, with no pay. They are also even eligible to go on ADT orders in some circumstances. All of these also get them points. People in the ASP are who most people think of as the "IRR;" they muster once a year and only get points as Flash described. That said, a SELRES who drops to the IRR to avoid a MOB shall get a adverse FITREP either way.

Oh, and anyone in the IRR is eligible for callup via Congressional action, but the President can only dip into the SELRES to MOB people.

 

[Single Seat]

Forgive my ignorance, but this question has been bothering me. What about the reserve retirement for the guys that are quitting SELRES and going IRR to avoid a MOB? Are they giving up on the big payoff just a few years from the finish line, or is there generally some beaten path to completing the requirement, such as earning points in the IRR, going ANG, re-affiliating with another SELRES unit, etc.?

Flash and nit pretty much summed it up, but left out one huge issue that anyone contemplating this course of action has to face. That is, Navy OPSEC policy WRT all things online have moved everything behind CAC secured websites and folks in the IRR do not have a CAC card. Thus, the primary way of accruing points (online correspondence courses) has all but been sealed shut. It appears to just be a massive oversight on the surface, and I think it'll get fixed. On the other hand this may have been a tactical move made in a longer term effort to purge the quitters and lessen the DOD financial obligation down the road.

Now for the tangent.

What I don't think guys are doing enough of, is putting a real dollar amount on that IA, and the cost of being a SELRES. The bigger picture, and the choice that myself and a lot of others are struggling with, is that it's not as big a pay off as you may think when put into real dollar terms WRT to what is going on today for anyone that punches and goes to the airlines. Allow me to explain with some basic assumptions and fuzzy bar napkin math.

An O-4 retiring out of the reserves today, can expect to earn in the ballpark of $2500/month in retirement. That's only $500,000 in an IRA earning 5% annually. There are annuities out there, that for $500,000 will pay you as much as $36,000/year. Give or take a few bucks.

Most of the airlines out there are contributing 16% of gross earnings into a 403(b) plan, which coupled with your 2015 401(k) max of $18,500 comes to $53,000/year... if you make enough for the 16% to hit the 403(b) limit of $35,000. Granted you need to make a hair over $218k/year for the company to contribute that much. However, by your second year at Delta/United/SWA/etc, with minimal effort you'll clear $10K/month. I, and guys I know have no problem after first year pay, clearing $12-14K/month with minimal effort pulling 10-15 days off a month. So covering the gap of what you WOULD have made 25+ years from now (in todays dollars) is not that daunting of a challenge. It's really not even a second thought with a little financial planning and discipline.

Here's where the IA wrecking ball swinging around becomes a consideration...

As a SELRES, you'll make about $900/drill weekend. Paying around $200/month for TRICARE (which is about $300 cheaper than the cheapest company sponsored health plan on average) you're making a grand total of about $1100/month with strict drill pay, flying not withstanding. Now as a year 2+ guy at an airline, if you have to drop a 4 day trip worth $2-3K (plus that 16% contribution) you're losing money all of a sudden. This is a VERY simple example, and there are ways to separate the two such that you can maximize the income potential from both, taking full advantage of both, but it's very very hard. You really have to hustle to make it work to the full extent, and it's going to be at the cost of time home with your spouse and kids, toys, life, whatever. Can you kill it on both ends? Absolutely, does it come at personal cost? Unequivocally yes. Realistically though if you're giving up a couple of grand here and there to maintain the SELRES gig, at the cost of not only retirement contributions but monthly income and time and home what is the ultimate cost to you, and is it worth it. Obviously a very personal choice from man to man.

Now, after pulling the pin and making a huge leap of faith and risk to get out and make a massive career shift, the IA boogey man is lurking in the shadows. All those 8-10+ month deployments and workups, IA's etc are why guys left active duty in the first place. Now you're facing doing another one, but now it's going to cost you even more. Not just in potential earnings and savings, but in family time which is probably the main reason you got out in the first place.

Again, it's a very personal choice. One job you're married to, the other is your mistress who will never get a ring. You have to decide which is which, and what you're willing to sacrifice and/or risk.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Flash and nit pretty much summed it up, but left out one huge issue that anyone contemplating this course of action has to face. That is, Navy OPSEC policy WRT all things online have moved everything behind CAC secured websites and folks in the IRR do not have a CAC card. Thus, the primary way of accruing points (online correspondence courses) has all but been sealed shut. It appears to just be a massive oversight on the surface, and I think it'll get fixed. On the other hand this may have been a tactical move made in a longer term effort to purge the quitters and lessen the DOD financial obligation down the road.

Now for the tangent.

What I don't think guys are doing enough of, is putting a real dollar amount on that IA, and the cost of being a SELRES. The bigger picture, and the choice that myself and a lot of others are struggling with, is that it's not as big a pay off as you may think when put into real dollar terms WRT to what is going on today for anyone that punches and goes to the airlines. Allow me to explain with some basic assumptions and fuzzy bar napkin math.

An O-4 retiring out of the reserves today, can expect to earn in the ballpark of $2500/month in retirement. That's only $500,000 in an IRA earning 5% annually. There are annuities out there, that for $500,000 will pay you as much as $36,000/year. Give or take a few bucks.

Again, it's a very personal choice. One job you're married to, the other is your mistress who will never get a ring. You have to decide which is which, and what you're willing to sacrifice and/or risk.

I believe it is less to do with security and more to do with reducing reserve personnel expenses. The evidence is plentiful: disallowing NETC retirement points (no CAC required), only accepting 50 courses out of the 1000+ courses in Joint Knowledge Online (again, no CAC required) and a footnote on page 13 of the new Defense Pay and Retirement Report (discussed on other threads) on acknowledging the success of the Navy Reserves in reducing the availability of correspondence/non-drilling retirement points.

As for retiring from the reserves, little bit of JPME and an exercise or two should get you O-5. Find a command and make O-6. A reserve O-6 retirement can be in excess of $6000 per month so that may change your decision matrix.

 

[Single Seat]

I believe it is less to do with security and more to do with reducing reserve personnel expenses. The evidence is plentiful: disallowing NETC retirement points (no CAC required), only accepting 50 courses out of the 1000+ courses in Joint Knowledge Online (again, no CAC required) and a footnote on page 13 of the new Defense Pay and Retirement Report (discussed on other threads) on acknowledging the success of the Navy Reserves in reducing the availability of correspondence/non-drilling retirement points.

As for retiring from the reserves, little bit of JPME and an exercise or two should get you O-5. Find a command and make O-6. A reserve O-6 retirement can be in excess of $6000 per month so that may change your decision matrix.

Again, the amount of time it takes you to get there, is right in the heart of the earning years of an airline gig. So you make O-6, but at the cost of 30-40k or more per year. You have to factor in opportunity cost, which with compounded growth can be huge.

 

[Randy Daytona]

"Again, the amount of time it takes you to get there, is right in the heart of the earning years of an airline gig. So you make O-6, but at the cost of 30-40k or more per year. You have to factor in opportunity cost, which with compounded growth can be huge."

I agree completely, just wanted everyone to see the different variables if they decide to push for eagles in the reserves. Some guys may get furloughed, some may lose their medical, some may gamble and do both, etc.

 

[Single Seat]

"Again, the amount of time it takes you to get there, is right in the heart of the earning years of an airline gig. So you make O-6, but at the cost of 30-40k or more per year. You have to factor in opportunity cost, which with compounded growth can be huge."

I agree completely, just wanted everyone to see the different variables if they decide to push for eagles in the reserves. Some guys may get furloughed, some may lose their medical, some may gamble and do both, etc.

All valid concerns and the crux of my post. Decide which one you want to make a career and which you want to be beer/hooker money. The SELRES gig is most definitely the best furlough safety net one can have (unless you're smart and marry rich) but at the risk of sounding like "it's different this time," barring another 9/11 type event or Iran lighting one off I don't think anyone getting hired in the next few years will have to worry about the F word. It would be cheaper for an airline to simply stop hiring and let the senior guys retire than to furlough and absorb all the cost of unemployment and training flowing guys down and back up again.

Staying healthy in this job is a whole other conversation and risk.

 

[webmaster]

Staying healthy in this job is a whole other conversation and risk.

To me that is a scenario that I wonder about. I have taken steps to prepare for the worst case loss of medical, but man, that would SUCK if it happened in my 50s. Too old to really transition to another job, and that would be right when I would theoretically be hitting prime income years at the airlines. Live well but stay healthy is my goal!

 

[e6bflyer]

To me that is a scenario that I wonder about. I have taken steps to prepare for the worst case loss of medical, but man, that would SUCK if it happened in my 50s. Too old to really transition to another job, and that would be right when I would theoretically be hitting prime income years at the airlines. Live well but stay healthy is my goal!

Fortunately, the major airlines have taken steps to insulate against that as well. We will essentially get two paid years here prior to being thrown out on the street. Some of that is sick pay, some is the company's loss of license, and some of it is through the union. It is nice to have that cushion to give you time to set something else up.

 

[ChuckM]

Quick question: other than some paid time off, does the average airline offer disability insurance as a component of its benefits packages? Do guys pay for it on thier own? I never really thought much about the risk of losing a flying job due to health issues (all things Navy, it seems they would just likely transition you to another designator or medically retire you...)

 

[webmaster]

Quick question: other than some paid time off, does the average airline offer disability insurance as a component of its benefits packages? Do guys pay for it on thier own? I never really thought much about the risk of losing a flying job due to health issues (all things Navy, it seems they would just likely transition you to another designator or medically retire you...)

It's broken down into Short Term and Long Term Disability. As @e6bflyer mentioned, you will exhaust your sick time that you have accumulated and then benefits through the company, the union and finally any that you paid for as insurance. In my case:

Under a year: Sick/Vacation Time exhausted first. Short Term Disability kicks in. If you signed up for Union coverage then they have a disability benefit that brings you close to 100% of your pay.

Over a year: Long Term Disability kicks in (after everything above is exhausted). 60% of pay (less workers comp, SS disability benefits, state disability benefits, and other income earned). If you paid for Union coverage, then it will close the gap to bring you up to 100% of pay. This gives you 24 months of benefits (disability insurance) for you to find another job or get back to employment with the airline.

There are more rules, limitations and benefit (think reading the TRICARE Humana Booklet) that cause my head to explode when I sat down and read through them (ok, skimmed the highlights). As e6b said, it is a cushion for you to figure out what you are going to do next. My previous advice stands, lol, stay healthy!

I have heard great things about our Union medical reps getting fellow pilots back into a flight status after medical issues!

 

[Single Seat]

It's broken down into Short Term and Long Term Disability. As @e6bflyer mentioned, you will exhaust your sick time that you have accumulated and then benefits through the company, the union and finally any that you paid for as insurance. In my case:

I have heard great things about our Union medical reps getting fellow pilots back into a flight status after medical issues!

My dad had a heart stint put in when he was in his late 50's. ALPA medical handled everything with the FAA and he was back in the cockpit within a year. He said that alone more than covered all the dues he had paid over his career.

 

[e6bflyer]

My dad had a heart stint put in when he was in his late 50's. ALPA medical handled everything with the FAA and he was back in the cockpit within a year. He said that alone more than covered all the dues he had paid over his career.

Perfect example of why pilots have labor unions. The company would have probably thrown the baby out with the bath water. Easier to hire and train a new pilot than to pay and then work with him or her to rehabilitate into a flying status. The union provides a medical rep, legal help, mutual aid for catastrophes, substance abuse counseling, contract admin for disputes, a negotiating committee to hammer out rules and pay, and a lot of other day to day things that are vital in this career. I didn't get it when I signed up for this job, but boy am I glad I have it now. There are drawbacks, such as the inability to fire morons until they bend metal or nearly do so. For the 99.99 percent that do a great job, it is a vital organization.