-
Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?
Go here:
Edit Account Details and Profile
My New Toy
- Thread starter NeoCortex
- Start date
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Got any 1903 goodwill or M1 Carbine goodwill 
What would you prefer fly? It has better wound characteristics at distances past 90 meters? A heavier bullet is less effected by winds at range? 7.62x54 has similar ballistics to a .308? Either way it is the same reason that some of our guys are walking around in the sand with the m-14.
xmid said:
"Knockdown power" is a misnomer. Bullets don't physically knock people down. It defies physics. People shot with 12 gauge slugs don't get thrown backwards. It doesn't happen. It's a stupid movie term. I hate the term, and you should too (I know your knowledges are high).
Smiles in effect
This is partially true. Most of the ammo in the US in 7.62x54 is crap. Unless you are buying from a precision/tactical shooting shop, or reloading your own you are probably getting some Eastern European crap. Its the same problem that many of our guys ran in to when they first started using the .50 cal as a sniper rifle. The rounds were designed to run in a Ma Duece, where accuracy isn't too big of an issue, and they weren't all that accurate through a Barret at 1000 yards. As soon as precision .50 cal became available accuracy at extreme distances was vastly improved. A steel core has less to do with accuracy and more to do with penetration.
What you might have read is that most Russian guns were designed to use steel cased ammunition. Steel cased ammo is alot cheaper to produce. The problem, other than being non-reloadable, is that it must be coated in a laquer in order to keep it from corroding. That laquer will heat up when the gun goes off and cause the shell casing to get stuck in the chamber. This is part of the reason that the tolerances are really loose on Russian guns, but they will eject those nasty laquered casings all day long. Some good gunsmiths could build you a very accurate Dragunov by blueprinting the rifle and really tightening it up. Once they did this you wouldn't be able to fire Russian and eastern block ammo through it anymore. I fired a Russian 30-06 "wolf" round out of my worked over Winchester Stealth and it took me almost half an hour to get the round out of the chamber. Needless to say I didn't do that again. I have shot 1000 rounds of "wolf" through my uzi and never had a problem with it for the same reasons the Dragunov handles it fine.
What you might have read is that most Russian guns were designed to use steel cased ammunition. Steel cased ammo is alot cheaper to produce. The problem, other than being non-reloadable, is that it must be coated in a laquer in order to keep it from corroding. That laquer will heat up when the gun goes off and cause the shell casing to get stuck in the chamber. This is part of the reason that the tolerances are really loose on Russian guns, but they will eject those nasty laquered casings all day long. Some good gunsmiths could build you a very accurate Dragunov by blueprinting the rifle and really tightening it up. Once they did this you wouldn't be able to fire Russian and eastern block ammo through it anymore. I fired a Russian 30-06 "wolf" round out of my worked over Winchester Stealth and it took me almost half an hour to get the round out of the chamber. Needless to say I didn't do that again. I have shot 1000 rounds of "wolf" through my uzi and never had a problem with it for the same reasons the Dragunov handles it fine.
Barnard1425 said:I read somewhere (a gun mag, if memory serves) that Dragunov's often get a bad rap for inaccuracy due to ammunition issues. That is, they'll shoot the common 7.62x54 cartridge found in shops around the US but were really intended for (and deployed by the Soviets with) a more exotic steel-core round. The result is that people firing the cheaper round find the accuracy lacking.
Not saying that it's what happened in the aforementioned case... it's just a thought.
And Snort said "knockdown power" too!What's this world coming to, gun freaks?
Remember, the Dragunov was never intended for sub-MOA accuracy. However, it can be brought there with work.
xmid said:
Wolf hasn't been lacquer coated in years. And the majority of 7.62x54r that is in the states is steel core, steel cased surplus. It's cheap and plentiful -- so you'd be throwing money away shooting US-made ammo, or even Wolf. I've seen plenty of PSL/FPKs deliver MOA performance with it. Perhaps you just can't shoot. Also, please stop referring to PSLs/FPKs/ROMAK-3s as "Dragunovs."
Birdman1 said:
You're looking in all the wrong places.
squeeze said:
We'll maybe us slow folks down here in Georgia are the only ones with laquered rounds laying around... At least I do... and guess what these guns were designed back when they WERE laquered so my point stands. The idea that they are trying to build a gun that you can run "dirty" ammo through is what makes them less accurate. There is plenty of 7.62 (.308) surplus ammunition laying around too, but it wouldn't be my first choice to put in one of my tactical rifles and go shoot at 800 yards. I never said that the PSL/ (not talking about FPKs, as they are a different weapon) weren't capable of MOA performance. Is 1 MOA good for one of your precision rifles? Because its not for mine. So it can be fairly accurate, but for a "sniper rifle" it leaves something to be desired.
As far as calling them "Dragunovs", I will stop calling them that if you stop lumping PSL,FPK and Romak-3's in as the same gun. Would you rather me call them " Snaiperskaya Vintovka Dragunova", or SVD's? NOT PSL's, or FPK's or Romak-3's, but SVD... And if you are going to get all bent out of shape about me calling the Snaiperskaya Vintovka Dragunova a Dragunov, then you may as well crap on anyone that calls an AK-47/74 a Kalashnikov.
And as far as me not being able to shoot... Anytime you wanna disprove that theory let me know.
xmid said:
- They are the same gun, slick. PSL = ROMAK3 = SSG-97 = FPK (incorrect label US govt gave them)
- No, call it what it is, PSL or ROMAK3, or you look like every other chump at a gun show calling them SVDs or Dragunovs.
- see http://www.dragunov.net/faq.htm if you don't feel like believing me
- And yes, people who call SARs/WASRs/M70/M92/etc... "AK-47s" annoy me. Also, you don't call an M-16 a "Colt," so why call an AK-47 a "Kalashnikov?"
- You're witty attempt at pointing out what SVD means doesn't impress anyone.
- Do you really want to start arguing guns with me?
squeeze said:
(1.) No they are not the same gun, and the web site you listed is on my side of this one. PSL or ROMAK3's are not the same rifle as an SVD. They are imitations that are built on AK recievers. Ironically, the web site you gave states this in great detail. There is even a page devoted to showing some of the differences. One question posted on there:
"I have a Romanian ROMAK 3. If it isn't a Dragunov, what is it?"
"What you have is a "PSL" which is a Kalashnikov design. It's a Designated Marksman's rifle that is based on the RPK machine gun receiver. The more recent imports of these rifles are called SSG-97's and were brought in by Inter Ordnance. It is the same rifle as the ROMAK-3, just under a different name. Years ago these rifles were mistakenly called FPK's by the US government and the name can still be found in use from time to time (though it's not correct). The receiver is a stamped sheet metal design which has reinforcements below the barrel trunion and at the rear cut-out to prevent cracks due to the strong recoil. The gas system is like an AK series with the gas piston being attached to the bolt carrier. The ROMAK (ROManian Avtomat Kalashnikov) 3's imported were made at the Regia Autonoma de Tehnicå Militarå (RATMIL)-CUGIR arsenal in Bucharest Romania and had their bayonet lugs removed to meet import restrictions. Click here for more comparison pictures."
And:
"I just bought a Dragunov parts kit, which receiver can I use?"
"What you most likely bought is a Romanian PSL parts kit. These have popped up at a few online retailers and on ebay. Even though they are being advertised as "Dragunov" rifles, they aren't. These kits are disassembled Romanian PSL rifles, known in the US as ROMAK-3 or SSG-97. The good news is the receivers are easy to come by if you live in the US. The bad news is that the scope rails on these receivers may not be in spec and will have to be modified if you want to use Eastern European optics."
And here:
"Who makes the best Dragunov?"
"Well, first of all we can rule out the Romanian version. Regardless of what you may have seen in advertisements, there is no such thing as a Romanian Dragunov. The two manufacturers that are available here in the US are Norinco from China and Izhmash from Russia."
So the only true "Dragunovs" are SVD's.
(2.) I am calling it what it is, an SVD or a Dragunov. As I said before the other rifles you listed are not "Dragunov's". (See the quotes from YOUR website above)
(3.) I did. So far I have used your website exclusively for proving my point.
(4.) Calling any of these guns an AK-47 is misleading. It is the same as calling any brand of AR-15 an M-16. Kalashnikov is not the brand, but the name of the designer and the design that the AK's share with several other firearms including the Galil. The sporting versions produced by Saiga are considered Kalashnikovs, because they operate on his design (which ironically was some-what copied from the German Stermgewher rifle.) There are actually several rifles that are claimed to be "Kalashnikovs" and you can see some of them on Kalashnikovs Russian site: http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/
And most of the AK's used by the Russian military were produced by izhmash, not Kalashnikov himself. You can see this at their site: http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/
(5.) My "witty" attempt?... thats what it means...
(6.) To answer your question, no I did not want to argue guns with you. I don't know why you chose to try to flame on my post but you were wrong. Like I said anytime you want to straighten out your idea that I can't shoot and your down my way let me know.
This is another point of interest from your site:
"Why does my 7.62x54 SVD only get about 2 MOA?"
"The reason is most likely because you are shooting surplus ammo that you paid $40 for a 440 round tin. The SVD was designed to shoot a match grade cartridge called 7N1 and 7N14."
And what casing does the 7N1 have? You guessed it, a copper washed steel casing, with an anti-corrosion light laquer.