More Inter-agency Law Enforcement Incompetence: King Schools Owners Falsely Arrested

[ryan1234]

The idea that Law Enforcement Officer's shouldn't have their weapons drawn during an apprehension, because looking back on the situation theres no way it would have got really dangerous, is ludicrous. The fact that some are even telling the one dude on the forum who actually has first hand experience with those types of situations that the way he conducts himself professionally is wrong is even more ludicrous.

Don't most law enforcement officers search/coordinate vehicle tags through the motor vehicle database/agency respective to each area? The FAA is the head agency for aircraft registration. Going in based on a registration number alone from a completely seperate organization should have warranted at the very least a phone call to the FAA or database search - since it is the FAA that handles aircraft registration/ownership.

I have absolutely no problem with LEOs taking steps for their own safety, but a lack of head-work on the leadership simply can't be a justification for putting innocent people in danger. Especially since this was the second time this happened to the same aircraft within the year.

That'd be like me telling you that you really shouldn't have had your crew manning the guns going into the LZ, or during a fast rope raid you did because you should really take the time to get into the hover and taken a look around before hand to see if the local villagers are just sitting there watching your or picking up the RPGs before you have them man the gun so you don't scare the local population while your hovering in the center of town. And while you're at it, don't activate your ASE for the ingress/egress, because theres no real chance of someone shooting a MANPAD at you. I would be completely be talking out of my ass.

IMHO it's a far stretch to relate this to combat. If that were the case, perhaps LEOs should always have their guns drawn even at routine traffic stops - since a lot of police shootings happen during those right?

 

[Flash]

In today's environment with aircraft it is better to be safe than sorry. Okay, so guns were drawn, from what little I know that is pretty standard when you don't know what you are facing. And while this is a bit of a foul-up I would prefer this kind instead of missing something completely. A lesson for all those involved to do a little bit better at checking for this kind of thing but while checking a car is pretty standard checking on an aircraft certainly is not a common thing for most law enforcement agencies. And while many of us could pick out one aircraft from another most people wouldn't know a Cessna from a Boeing, shocking as that may seem. I wouldn't have know the difference either, both look pretty much the same to me.

 

[jarhead]

http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2010/100830kings.html?WT.mc_id=ebrief

John and Martha King of King Schools (who among other things, created the Cessna equivalent of a "Total Syllabus" courseware for the Cessna 172 Skyhawk SP for Cessna Pilot Centers) were arrested over the weekend at Santa Barbara Airport under the allegations that they were flying a stolen aircraft.

...more words...

I didn't read anywhere in the article from your link that said those people were arrested. Your use of “arrested” sensationalizes the whole thing.

 

[FlyingOnFumes]

I didn't read anywhere in the article from your link that said those people were arrested. Your use of “arrested” sensationalizes the whole thing.

They were handcuffed and put into the back of two separate cruisers, my former instructor witnessed it live while I was on the phone with him. Isn't that being arrested? Or is that only considered being "detained'? And even if so, would that be just splitting hairs?

 

[Gatordev]

View attachment 12171 View attachment 12170

They were handcuffed and put into the back of two separate cruisers, my former instructor witnessed it live while I was on the phone with him. Isn't that being arrested? Or is that only considered being "detained'? And even if so, would that be just splitting hairs?

Believe it or not, no, it's not splitting hairs. Do I think LE did a poor job on this one at some level? Yes, but just because they were hand cuffed and put in a squad car (or big gray ship...or HMMMV) doesn't mean they were arrested.

I can empathize w/ Rare's point of view. I don't agree it applies in this case, but I can understand his frustration/SOP when doing a "felony stop" (whatever that felony stop may be...even when you know the troll people that are the Kings).

 

[ryan1234]

Detained/Having several loaded weapons pointed at you - from my understanding, being arrested (past being detained) is simply a procedural matter and just a piece of paper (from personal experience).... so being 'arrested', while not technically accurate (perhaps just 'detained') may be besides the point here. JMHO

 

[jarhead]

Im not gonna Monday AM QB the police actions because I wasn't there and don't know all of the info. I do know, from a legal standpoint, there is a big difference between being "detained" and being "arrested"...whether or not the police have their weapons drawn.

 

[craftingraptor]

Detained/Having several loaded weapons pointed at you - from my understanding, being arrested (past being detained) is simply a procedural matter and just a piece of paper (from personal experience).... so being 'arrested', while not technically accurate (perhaps just 'detained') may be besides the point here. JMHO

Im not gonna Monday AM QB the police actions because I wasn't there and don't know all of the info. I do know, from a legal standpoint, there is a big difference between being "detained" and being "arrested"...whether or not the police have their weapons drawn.

For all the laymen out there like myself, what's the small/big difference, exactly?

 

[HooverPilot]

When you are arrested, you are no longer "free to go". Not being free to go means a custodial interrogation, which triggers the Miranda rights. If you are being detained, you have an expectation of being able to leave when the immediate investigation is complete. When just detained, the police are not required to read you your Miranda rights.

Ultimatly, there are a few legal triggers that define detained vs arrested. I went to the police academy > 12 years ago so my memory is fading. Cuffs do not mean arrest though. An officer can restrict your movements for their own safety while they determine if there is or isn't a threat to them.

I do think much of the discussion is nonsense though. The police were investigating a possible stolen aircraft. If an Audi was stopped with plates that match a 1970 VW Beetle that had been reported stolen, the police should be even more suspicious. They just don't know what is going on... Is it terrorists trying to blend in or two old trolls out for a pleasure ride?

 

[craftingraptor]

No one has said it yet, but I honestly think that the King's thought they deserved special attention. That or someone close to them decided it was newsworthy. If it had been any normal person in the GA field they would have been detained, the investigation would have revealed they weren't stealing the plane and the person would be let go without any published news item. Sure, it would be inconvenient but so are border patrol stops, random DUI traffic stops and when I was pulled over in my recently bought used car because my plates didn't show me in their system yet.

As has been said about the due diligence, I agree, I think more should have been done. Regarding the weapons drawn part, no one has mentioned the teenage thief we heard about oh so recently that did steal planes and carried a hand-gun in case people disagreed with his intentions. Perhaps the police drew their weapons because they thought the would be plane stealer(s) would imitate that guy. I think there is more than one doctrine for approaching a suspect plane and in this case I think they erred on the side of safety.

 

[Lawman]

When you are arrested, you are no longer "free to go". Not being free to go means a custodial interrogation, which triggers the Miranda rights. If you are being detained, you have an expectation of being able to leave when the immediate investigation is complete. When just detained, the police are not required to read you your Miranda rights.

Ultimatly, there are a few legal triggers that define detained vs arrested. I went to the police academy > 12 years ago so my memory is fading. Cuffs do not mean arrest though. An officer can restrict your movements for their own safety while they determine if there is or isn't a threat to them.

I do think much of the discussion is nonsense though. The police were investigating a possible stolen aircraft. If an Audi was stopped with plates that match a 1970 VW Beetle that had been reported stolen, the police should be even more suspicious. They just don't know what is going on... Is it terrorists trying to blend in or two old trolls out for a pleasure ride?

Adding too this.

1. A lot of people have a lot of misconceptions about "Miranda Rights" based on too many episodes of Law and Order. Fact of the matter is there is no requirement for a police officer to "read you your rights" as they put the cuffs on. If he/she doesnt want you too go anywhere you damn sure arent going to plain and simple. If he puts cuffs on you and places you in the back seat of the cruiser there is no actual legal requirement to inform you of anything. Now the consequences on the back side of an engagement as such may be crappy for the department but thats not the purpose of Miranda rights. They are strictly guidelines to the process of questioning and processing a person after their arrest and your right to representation during questioning. Your rights at the site of the arrest basically consist of not having your head kicked in if you cooperate with the arresting officer.

2. For the love of god do not get into a legality argument with a police officer. Litigation takes place in a court room, not on the side of the highway or in front of a strip club. You Argue with a Cop your showing your ass and going to lose. Funny thing is you wont see a Lawyer or Judge or even another Police Officer do it. You will however see Joe Six Pack dipshit play the "I know my rights" game. Police are not litigators, they arent judges. Its strictly a training of "Respond to Scenario _____ with _____ and if things go bad use the force ladder/pyramid/whatever you call it in your department." Like Rare said, plates come back stolen you get out at Gun Point, whether your a 90 year old couple driving around in a Blue Grand Marquis in Church Clothes or a group of young Thugs rolling around in a 40K dollar Mercedes. Police Procedure is like Natops, its written in Blood.

 

[FlyinRock]

If the arresting officer knew these people on a personal level, it could color the arrest or detention. OTOH, if I didn't know the people and had reason to believe they were in possession of a stolen vehicle/airplane, how in hell could I tell if they were the indeed "famous" or whatever, and not do due diligence?
There is way too much BS allotted to this incident. I don't know who is more incensed about it either. AOPA, Kings, or GA? Making too much to do about nothing.
Lets take the news to something more apropos and talk about the people being killed in Afganisitan/Iran/Iraq and forget the assholes like Kings, Hilton, Sharpton, Jackson et al.
Semper fi
Rocky

 

[Swanee]

If the arresting officer knew these people on a personal level, it could color the arrest or detention. OTOH, if I didn't know the people and had reason to believe they were in possession of a stolen vehicle/airplane, how in hell could I tell if they were the indeed "famous" or whatever, and not do due diligence?
There is way too much BS allotted to this incident. I don't know who is more incensed about it either. AOPA, Kings, or GA? Making too much to do about nothing.
Lets take the news to something more apropos and talk about the people being killed in Afganisitan/Iran/Iraq and forget the assholes like Kings, Hilton, Sharpton, Jackson et al.
Semper fi
Rocky

Did the issue of the registration get fixed? Or will they get picked up for flying their legally owned airplane again? Happens once, "oh shit, we screwed up, but we'll fix it." Happens twice, "Wow, now we really look like we don't know what we are doing." If it happens a third time.... wow...

 

[yak52driver]

If the arresting officer knew these people on a personal level, it could color the arrest or detention. OTOH, if I didn't know the people and had reason to believe they were in possession of a stolen vehicle/airplane, how in hell could I tell if they were the indeed "famous" or whatever, and not do due diligence?
There is way too much BS allotted to this incident. I don't know who is more incensed about it either. AOPA, Kings, or GA? Making too much to do about nothing.
Lets take the news to something more apropos and talk about the people being killed in Afganisitan/Iran/Iraq and forget the assholes like Kings, Hilton, Sharpton, Jackson et al.
Semper fi
Rocky

Completely agree with this. I don't give a damn about some spoiled rich punk and that they get special treatment because of their family name. Very sadly, the news covering what is actually important doesn't create the rating points they want.

 

[FlyinRock]

I had a favoritre response to assholes who said, "I'll have your badge..." and replied, "Hey you can have it and deal with assholes like you." My Chief often had words with me and my public demeanor. I told him the worse they get, the deamener I get.