Goofytallguy
Registered User
I enlisted under the aircrew program ...this is Air Warriors, right? =) ... 5 years aircrew, 1 year signing bonus.
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military "culture"
- Thread starter lunar
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kevin
Registered User
i have to admit i have some of the same issues as lunar (although not the american part). my reservation about the navy go along the lines of not having a life outside the military. one reason i avoided corporate america was because of it's consuming of people's lives (both in the office and outside), hence one of the reasons for the breakdown of the family unit in this country. but that's a separate issue. besides that, stories ive heard from my friends in the fleet about prostitution rings on carriers, etc, made me really think hard about whether this is right for me. but the total lack of freedom for 10 years....that's tough. does anyone else have a problem with this or am i not fit for the navy? id really like to hear other people's opinions, cause maybe i am alone on this. i have no problem with being thrown out in the wilderness practically naked (SERE), serving at sea for a time, or the possibility of being shot at in combat, but to have my life completely dominated 24/7 is tough. i mean, i really look forward to that other stuff (military environment) always have, particularly the comraderie, but as long as there are breaks from it...and im not sure there are. it just makes me think, that's all. i have always wanted to fly for the military so badly that i guess im willing to make the sacrafice. but when people say i should want to serve in the military period, and the pilot thing is second...well, i just dont agree because it is such a huge sacrafice, and specifically flying in the military is always what has excited me, and i can do good things for people outside of the military as well. i think a lot of people who say that are being seriously hypocritical. as for american policy...i dont believe in a lot of the things we do, nor do i particularly care for some of the moral/ethical levels in this country. but then again, no other country has these problems solved either, and many are a lot worse. it's just part of the human condition = bad people and good people and a whole hell of a lot in between. but i think if your intentions are good and just (ie, make the world a better place), that is what's expected of you. if we were going into iraq for a reason that doesnt exist, but im flying into combat with the intention of easing the suffering of people under a brutal dictator...well then that's what makes me a better person (i know this has a hint of moral relativism, but it's how i feel).
Officer first, then an Aviator.
Life "dominated"? Granted, I'm not in the Fleet yet, and won't be for some time (Flight school sooooo long), but I can do whatever I want, basically. I think you've seen too many movies. From talking with senior officers with fleet experience, the Navy far from "dominates" you. I'll let the salty dogs answer that one though, because in reality I can't really give a great answer for that.
It doesn't matter worth a damn if you agree with the conflict you're in. You were sent there, that's your job. Of course, you can disagree, but not officially. It doesn't work that way. That's when you quit if it is that important to you (hence officers resigning when Mr. Klinton was President).
Think long and hard about this before making the decision. Talk to those that served, don't listen to those that only know the military from TV.
Fly Navy
ENS USNR
Life "dominated"? Granted, I'm not in the Fleet yet, and won't be for some time (Flight school sooooo long), but I can do whatever I want, basically. I think you've seen too many movies. From talking with senior officers with fleet experience, the Navy far from "dominates" you. I'll let the salty dogs answer that one though, because in reality I can't really give a great answer for that.
It doesn't matter worth a damn if you agree with the conflict you're in. You were sent there, that's your job. Of course, you can disagree, but not officially. It doesn't work that way. That's when you quit if it is that important to you (hence officers resigning when Mr. Klinton was President).
Think long and hard about this before making the decision. Talk to those that served, don't listen to those that only know the military from TV.
Fly Navy
ENS USNR
kevin
Registered User
understand the officer first thing. my point is that as a pilot i will be an officer first, but if i wasnt going in as a pilot, im not sure if i would go in or not...i would definitely have to find something first that grabbed me. if that makes me unworthy to be in the military, so be it. i agree with your point on going into conflicts (i think i agreed with you above, or at least i meant to). and no, i really dont know much about everyday life in the navy, so i do thank you for your viewpoints. it's not movies, it's just friends (swo) in the fleet who tell me not to do it because of how consuming it is, and they cant wait to get out. since this is really the only viewpoint ive gotten, i would like to hear others, which is why i posted this.
SWOs work hard. A lot of the time they work too much. I've run across two types of SWOs...those that absolutely love it and don't really mind not sleeping/eating/etc...and those that absolutely hate it and want to leave ASAP. Basically, if you don't mind grueling hours, then you're good. Basic rule: if you want super quality of life, join the Chair Force...did I say Chair Force? I mean Air Farce....CRAP.....Air Force ;-)
From what I've gathered, the pilot lifestyle is much more laid back, though when they're deployed they're working hard (who isn't?).
It's good you're thinking about this critically...just make sure if you join you do so with a clear conscience (sp?).
By the way, that Last of the Mohicans quote is hilarious! Good one
Fly Navy
ENS USNR
From what I've gathered, the pilot lifestyle is much more laid back, though when they're deployed they're working hard (who isn't?).
It's good you're thinking about this critically...just make sure if you join you do so with a clear conscience (sp?).
By the way, that Last of the Mohicans quote is hilarious! Good one
Fly Navy
ENS USNR
viv
Midshipman 4/Trash
My Comments-
My first comment can best be expressed by this quote:
"The better work men do is always done under stress and at great personal cost."
-William Carlos Williams
MY second comment: If you want to be in the military, you must accept the fact that your main purpose is to fight wars if need be. As for me, I wouldn't care if my comrades were conservatives, liberals, black, white, brown, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Atheist, or anything else, as long as they are willing to fight with me.
GO NAVY BEAT ARMY
My first comment can best be expressed by this quote:
"The better work men do is always done under stress and at great personal cost."
-William Carlos Williams
MY second comment: If you want to be in the military, you must accept the fact that your main purpose is to fight wars if need be. As for me, I wouldn't care if my comrades were conservatives, liberals, black, white, brown, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Atheist, or anything else, as long as they are willing to fight with me.
GO NAVY BEAT ARMY
Goofytallguy
Registered User
kevin... you'll always be able to find individual people who can't wait to get out, but if you look at the numbers, I believe there's currently an 80% retention rate at the end of people's first enlistment period, so I think that pretty much sums it up, there are far more people in the Navy that would rather stay in than leave.
Sometimes the economy has a lot to do with that, especially from an aviator's standpoint. With the airlines in a slump and non-hiring mode, military pilots are staying in. Even the TAR billets are full. When the economy comes full circle and the well paying airline jobs are up and running again, look for the bailouts from the military.
VAW-120 FRS Flight Instructor
"MY second comment: If you want to be in the military, you must accept the fact that your main purpose is to fight wars if need be. As for me, I wouldn't care if my comrades were conservatives, liberals, black, white, brown, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Atheist, or anything else, as long as they are willing to fight with me."
yeah, something i can't say i'm exactly enthralled with. but then i think about the loon living next door to me here in japan.
this why the decision is a hard one for me. should the north finally feel pushed far enough up against the wall and lash out (like some idiot did this morning) i definitely want to be on the front lines. more for the north korean people than anything else actually.
but the military is not constantly at war (tho lately it does seem that way, eh?). sure, when we're getting shot at it really doesn't matter squat if my wing man is a bigot in my eyes, or vice versa. but i just feel like i really go against the grain of a lot of people's ideas on how to live in the military, whether it is political, religous, or even recreation (i actually don't watch football or baseball! blasphemy!) and this is my concern. i don't want to spend 8 years in the company of people, many of whom seeming to look down on the fact that i not adhere to any religion for example. or find it peculiar that i have a japanese girlfriend. or think i'm kind of queer when i say i feel these anti-gay "betterment for american family values" groups are bs loaded hypocrites. i think i've made my point. if i sound like someone with views who you do not want to associate with, then that's exactly what i'm trying to find out.
i don't believe i would ever have a problem going to war in the name of this country, because the wars we fight are against governments (and despicable ones at that) as opposed to people and their culture. that's not an issue. neither is the honor code, because it is something i excercise in my daily life anyhow.
yeah, something i can't say i'm exactly enthralled with. but then i think about the loon living next door to me here in japan.
this why the decision is a hard one for me. should the north finally feel pushed far enough up against the wall and lash out (like some idiot did this morning) i definitely want to be on the front lines. more for the north korean people than anything else actually.
but the military is not constantly at war (tho lately it does seem that way, eh?). sure, when we're getting shot at it really doesn't matter squat if my wing man is a bigot in my eyes, or vice versa. but i just feel like i really go against the grain of a lot of people's ideas on how to live in the military, whether it is political, religous, or even recreation (i actually don't watch football or baseball! blasphemy!) and this is my concern. i don't want to spend 8 years in the company of people, many of whom seeming to look down on the fact that i not adhere to any religion for example. or find it peculiar that i have a japanese girlfriend. or think i'm kind of queer when i say i feel these anti-gay "betterment for american family values" groups are bs loaded hypocrites. i think i've made my point. if i sound like someone with views who you do not want to associate with, then that's exactly what i'm trying to find out.
i don't believe i would ever have a problem going to war in the name of this country, because the wars we fight are against governments (and despicable ones at that) as opposed to people and their culture. that's not an issue. neither is the honor code, because it is something i excercise in my daily life anyhow.
The phrase "You meet all types in the military"...that's a no ****ter. Of course, this is from other's experiences, I'm still a brand new Ensign.
If you want to be a rabble rouser, you'll have a miserable life in the military. Alienating all of your shipmates for a 6 month cruise would be painful. But that's why you're not allowed to talk politics in the wardroom.
Remember, for everyone you think an idiot, there are the same amount of people that think you are just as equal an idiot. If you can't stand working with right-leaning people...don't join.
Fly Navy
ENS USNR
If you want to be a rabble rouser, you'll have a miserable life in the military. Alienating all of your shipmates for a 6 month cruise would be painful. But that's why you're not allowed to talk politics in the wardroom.
Remember, for everyone you think an idiot, there are the same amount of people that think you are just as equal an idiot. If you can't stand working with right-leaning people...don't join.
Fly Navy
ENS USNR
schmuckatelli
*********
I would not worry too much about the social-life aspect of your non-right-leaning views. I share many of your opinions and have not felt like anyone really cares that much. I have always been able to find other people with similar interests to hang out with. If they don't exist in your squadron (which is hard to believe) I'm sure you're resourceful enough to find stuff to do out in town. Of course this is easier once you are out of the training commands. Besides, who wants to spend time with the same people 24/7? You'll have plenty of opportunity to do that on the boat. If you think the benefits of joining the Navy outweigh the potential pitfalls then I think you should join. It has been a great experience so far and I have met a lot of fascinating people.
Lunar,
With all due respect, you sound like you haven't learned very much about people during your travels around the world. For as "cultured" as you pledge to be, you fail to realize that there are good things and bad things about ALL organizations and groups. And your little p.c. sensitivities might be upset when I say that this is probably the most asinine quote I've ever read on this site:
You are among the self-professed "open-minded" people who should sue your school district for depriving you of an education. Don't criticize service members who are out to have a good time. If they're not breaking any laws, you might as well thank them for protecting you and the entire country of Japan. (And yes, I know you have the BS "right" to criticize. But I have the right to tell you where to stuff it.) For all you know, these "square dancing" sailors are probably homesick after spending 6 months on some rusty tin can in the Pacific. You know, out there risking their lives to protect people like us.
Since you asked, I feel like you won't be happy in the Navy. I don't know you so I may be wrong, but it seems like you applied to the Navy without knowing very much about it. Here's one recommendation to improve your view of the Navy: The next time you see some of our servicemen going out for a good time, rather than make fun of their clothes or taste in music, sack up and buy them a round of beers and let them tell you what it's really like in the Navy. And tell them how much you love being an American.
-Greg
With all due respect, you sound like you haven't learned very much about people during your travels around the world. For as "cultured" as you pledge to be, you fail to realize that there are good things and bad things about ALL organizations and groups. And your little p.c. sensitivities might be upset when I say that this is probably the most asinine quote I've ever read on this site:
You are among the self-professed "open-minded" people who should sue your school district for depriving you of an education. Don't criticize service members who are out to have a good time. If they're not breaking any laws, you might as well thank them for protecting you and the entire country of Japan. (And yes, I know you have the BS "right" to criticize. But I have the right to tell you where to stuff it.) For all you know, these "square dancing" sailors are probably homesick after spending 6 months on some rusty tin can in the Pacific. You know, out there risking their lives to protect people like us.
Since you asked, I feel like you won't be happy in the Navy. I don't know you so I may be wrong, but it seems like you applied to the Navy without knowing very much about it. Here's one recommendation to improve your view of the Navy: The next time you see some of our servicemen going out for a good time, rather than make fun of their clothes or taste in music, sack up and buy them a round of beers and let them tell you what it's really like in the Navy. And tell them how much you love being an American.
-Greg
"You are among the self-professed "open-minded" people who should sue your school district for depriving you of an education. Don't criticize service members who are out to have a good time. If they're not breaking any laws, you might as well thank them for protecting you and the entire country of Japan."
i am not "self-professing" anything. and trust me, i have nothing against having a good time. and i do admit i was curt in the comment to say the least. the problem is not the sailors dressed up to go square dancing par se (minus the fashion situ in tokyo) but the attitude that comes with it. i have had drinks with some of these guys at the bar, and their convo consisted primarily of bitching about japan, about how /everything/ is just perfect back home, and how much better they are than the japanese. yet, that doesn't stop them from boasting about how much japanese (insert carnal expletive here) they've conquered. just as i have met some fairly cool people from the military, i have met a lot people i definitely do not want to associate myself with. unfortunately, the negative impacts of a few servicemen making a scene is going to resonate much more visibly not only with me, but with the people of the host country. and trust me, japan has its share of idiots. but the idiots are not japanese sailors stationed in new york, bitching constantly about what a sh!thole america and her people are.
as much as i profusely distaste the need armed defense, the truth of the world is that as long as there are stupid people doing stupid things, the military is essential for (most) people to live as they choose without harming others. Do not consider for a moment i am ungrateful for it. why do you think i am considering a commission at all?
one of my concerns is that by signing on, quite a few people around the world automatically label me as one of those tokyo cowboys. i know there's a flip-side, that as an officer i can let some of these people realize that no, not all sailors are port-girl bitchers. it's one of many things i am weighing right now. someone else here mentioned they are concerned about losing their "freedom" as a result of being in the service.
I know of air force who went to the defense lang inst. to actually study chinese - but he's never even been to china, and he was stationed in kadena and now hickam! short of a holiday visit, he sees no opportunity to excercise his chinese (minus any local speakers he occasionally crosses) or experience what is really a fascinating place underneath the bureaucratic bs government. this is my intrepretation of "losing freedom" in the service. i understand the navy has a pretty decent vacation plan for 30 days. but say after say my first tour, i wanted to spend 6-12 months in china or singapore studying chinese and learning about the place, integrating with the culture, but i'm barely half-way into my 8 year contract... is this feasible? otherwise, i think the fso may be something that's appearing more and more appealing...
i am not "self-professing" anything. and trust me, i have nothing against having a good time. and i do admit i was curt in the comment to say the least. the problem is not the sailors dressed up to go square dancing par se (minus the fashion situ in tokyo) but the attitude that comes with it. i have had drinks with some of these guys at the bar, and their convo consisted primarily of bitching about japan, about how /everything/ is just perfect back home, and how much better they are than the japanese. yet, that doesn't stop them from boasting about how much japanese (insert carnal expletive here) they've conquered. just as i have met some fairly cool people from the military, i have met a lot people i definitely do not want to associate myself with. unfortunately, the negative impacts of a few servicemen making a scene is going to resonate much more visibly not only with me, but with the people of the host country. and trust me, japan has its share of idiots. but the idiots are not japanese sailors stationed in new york, bitching constantly about what a sh!thole america and her people are.
as much as i profusely distaste the need armed defense, the truth of the world is that as long as there are stupid people doing stupid things, the military is essential for (most) people to live as they choose without harming others. Do not consider for a moment i am ungrateful for it. why do you think i am considering a commission at all?
one of my concerns is that by signing on, quite a few people around the world automatically label me as one of those tokyo cowboys. i know there's a flip-side, that as an officer i can let some of these people realize that no, not all sailors are port-girl bitchers. it's one of many things i am weighing right now. someone else here mentioned they are concerned about losing their "freedom" as a result of being in the service.
I know of air force who went to the defense lang inst. to actually study chinese - but he's never even been to china, and he was stationed in kadena and now hickam! short of a holiday visit, he sees no opportunity to excercise his chinese (minus any local speakers he occasionally crosses) or experience what is really a fascinating place underneath the bureaucratic bs government. this is my intrepretation of "losing freedom" in the service. i understand the navy has a pretty decent vacation plan for 30 days. but say after say my first tour, i wanted to spend 6-12 months in china or singapore studying chinese and learning about the place, integrating with the culture, but i'm barely half-way into my 8 year contract... is this feasible? otherwise, i think the fso may be something that's appearing more and more appealing...
Ok, think about the personnel you encountered, they are young men and women that are in their first term (on the whole) in the military, away from home for the first time, and by all accounts, being the ugly american. Dropping a sailor, airmen, or marine in Tokyo is a culture shock all its own for a 19-22 year old who has never before been out of Kansas. I know the exact crowd you are talking about, you can see it every liberty port and at pierside in the Navy. Doesn't matter if they are wearing cowboy hats or baggy jeans, you are faced with young servicemen that are confronting a vastly different culture, and to many degrees are being as I previously mentioned, the prototypical ugly american while abroad. These same ppl are the ones that have been at sea maybe for a couple months, chipping paint, standing port and starboard watches, and when liberty time comes, unfortunately drink too much, and make a scene.
I am not excusing the behavior of those servicemen, but I am saying that you are seeing a distorted slice of what our military is, and the people that comprise it. Those same kids (or maybe senior personnel cutting loose) are the same ones that make our ships run, our planes fly, and defend our safety when no one else is looking. The military as a whole, the pride, professionalism, and dedication are much more apparent to myself, and I am sure many others on this forum, seeing our sailors and troops in a wide range of differing activities than what you are mentioning.
You are hitting the nail straight on the head here. Military and host country relations are of prime importance to the military, and the chain of command takes and all cases of disorderly conduct or anything else seriously. Of particular note is the attention that the 7th Fleet AOR, (Japan, Okinawa, etc) places on the accountability of its servicemembers. Gone are the days of sailors running wild on liberty, you are seeing more and more COs placing liberty restrictions and curfews on their sailors to reduce the number of liberty incidents, and curtail any possible incidents.
But I say also, that you go to DC, our capitol, and walk around Tysons corner, or down at Georgetown, and you will find many foreigners trashing our country or expressing their views on how things should be (granted, at the same time they are enjoying the perks of being in our country).
On a completely different note, I was an E4 stationed in Pearl, and was visiting the Arizona Memorial with family, in uniform, and a bus of Japanese tourists came in and went out to the memorial on the same boat that I did. Generally around HI you find these tour groups as reserved crowds, but the excitement and exuberence that they showed at the Arizona Memorial is probably one of the hardest things I have ever had to watch. It hammered home to me the difference in cultures and the take on history that other people have. But if I showed the same display of behavior, at what is it? the memorial or peace park in Nagasaki/Hiroshima? and started taking pics and smiling I would get arrested....
No, they label you as an american, then you fall into the category as a military servicemember, and for a wide variety of reasons (just go to the state dept website on travel recommendations abroad) ALOT of people in this world do not care for us, exactly because of that uniform, and the beliefs we stand for. How many countries right now have terrorist organizations that have bounties out for americans?
On the copmlete other end of the spectrum, you have the countries and people that are happy to have you, are a pleasure to work side by side with, and make you proud to be a representative of your country.
All of the services have 30 days leave per year, but when you take that leave is not always your option, it is subject to operation commitments, and as always "the needs of the service". You mention "freedom" when you speak of the military, well, lets get it right out in the open, yes, when I took my oath I gave up a great deal of personal freedom, and subjected myself to a second set of laws and justice through the UCMJ, otherwise known as "double jeopardy". I don't get paid much, definitely not what my degree is worth, but darn it, putting on my uniform each day, and working with some of the best people in the world that I can darn well count on, and go out and make a difference, is its own reward. I didn't sign up to take extended leaves, I signed up for the chance to learn something new, grow as a person, and I hate to say it "join the Navy and see the world". Well, partner, I sure have. I have been around the globe, driven submarines, run security swims as a Navy Diver and pulled 8+ miles worth of trailing wire out of a screw, and get this, the Navy is letting me fly planes right now.
I am not trying to beat down on you, and make light of what you are trying to accomplish. What I am trying to say is that the Navy (heck military as a whole) is an open gamble, you make the best of what you can, you take the ****ty orders, the long watches, the hard duty, but you also can get some wonderful deals, great training, and take part in some amazing deployments.
Right now the Navy is still, qualify in a warfare specialty first, then put in for your follow on orders. There is always Naval Attache, foreign exchange programs (PEP), liasons and other positions to fill, but still, you never know what is available to you. On the other hand, the Navy might see your experience in languages as an asset and put the round peg in the round hole. You never know.
There are alot options out there for you in the military, but you commit when you take your oath, and is not something that is easily set aside.
Best of luck in your decision and future endeavors!
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