MH-60S with a M197 20mm cannon!

[phrogdriver]

be nice to know if the v-22 guys think they need something like that.

Only if they hook me up like this.

Otherwise, I know my thing is delivering Marines on their objective on time and getting them out when they need it, one way or another. That's the most important thing a military rotorcraft pilot can do. I don't need anything else to justify my existence.

 

[phrogpilot73]

That's the most important thing a military rotorcraft pilot can do.

I kinda disagree with this statement. I think the most important thing a military rotorcraft pilot can do, is what ever that 18 year old LCpl with a rifle needs done at the time. Sometimes he needs to be inserted, sometimes he needs CAS, sometimes he needs CASEVAC, and sometimes he needs his mail (with appropriate levels of porn). In the grand scheme of things, I fly a giant jockstrap for the grunts. And I'm cool with that.

As bad as it looks, it would impress me if the military could come up with a "training sim" that looks as "good" as that game...

So my civilian job is focused on synthetic training at EWTGLANT for prospective Marine FACs/JTACs/JFOs... There's this training system, called DVTE... Loaded on Dell Laptops... Distributed throughout the fleet... That includes the ability to fly a Cobra, Huey, CH-53E, AV-8B, use a GLTD-II, Vector/DAGR, IZLID, drive a 7 Ton, drive a HMMWV, drive an AAV, ride in any of the above, and it includes a first person shooter "game", plus the ability to network multiple computers together...

And yes, it looks pretty f'in close to that game. Oh - and you can plug in a headset and program a PRC-117 in order to talk to all your networked buddies...

How many Torps has the typical USMC HAC shot?

Zero. And what does it matter? This isn't WWII...

How many varsity level LLL inserts to a shitty, dusty, oh-my-christ-I-hope-I-don't-die LZs has a typical Navy HAC shot? We can measure dicks all day - but guess what, you can suck your own dicks about firing HFs and Torps, and realize that in the past decade of war, we've done our job more often than you have.

 

[Lawman]

GOOD CAS and fires is a full-time gig, too.

This!!!

We havent had any Cobra guys step in to represent the Gun Driving side of your uniforms so Ill say it out loud the same way I tell the Super Believer Hawk pilots in the Army... You Cant Do My Job!

Its not a matter of pilot skill or whatever ego driven point you may want to defend. I know there are plenty of amazing Hawk and Chinook pilots out there at the sticks as well as plenty of Ham fisted gun pilots that are mearly filling MTOW spots. The fact is if you arent a gun pilot every day of your life, and you go swapping out hats all the time your already behind the guys that do that mission and nothing else for a living. We are one of the only military forces on the planet that has dedicated Gunships. We have a culture that has been developed over the last 40+ years learning from lessons of the previous generation and passing down the knowledge. And too that we operate aircraft designed strickly for the mission at hand, not some bolt on jack of all trades modification where its one of half a dozen different missions because you want to be "multirole." Being over here in Europe is great for demonstrating the disparity between the approaches and seeing how vastly less effective non dedicated fires crews and aircraft are. The Germans just got the Tiger and just got it to work, now they are building an experience base and they constantly probe us for info. Last year we had the first integrated Tiger/Apache Ariel Weapons Team fly training missions, even with the advanced aircraft and all its technology they've still got a long way to go before they will be as capable community.

That doesnt even begin to approach all the technology that is built into Helicopters like Longbow/Zulu/Tiger to make them as good as they are and not just a new take on strapping guns to the sides of a Huey and flying shotgun for the Assault birds. There is a reason my helicopter costs 30 million dollars. Some of it is redundancy built in to it, or overbuilding for survivability, but a lot of it is black boxes and sensors that lift aircraft dont have.

 

[Pags]

That's the point. I know Navy helo pilots aren't supermen. I mean really, you've got Otto.

GOOD assault support is a full time profession. That's what "NSW support" really is. Don't tell me different--I've carried Recon, MARSOC, SEALs, Rangers, etc.

GOOD CAS and fires is a full-time gig, too.

While I think VERTREP is completely over-advertised as somehow being cool, the Navy guys claim it takes skill and training, so I'll take their word for it.

SAR, when actually performed, vice turning circles in the D, can be pretty challenging, too.

Either you all are rockstars (and having been an HT IP, I know you're not), you get unlimited flight hours, OR you are going to accept some degree of sucking at all or some of these tasks.

For most Navy helo guys we cross train in a lot of different areas due to the different needs of the fleet. The fleet needs helos that can do ASW, ASUW, SAR, PMC, MIW, PR, and SOF. Since a good chunk of Navy helos deploy as 1-2 bird dets vice a squadron or part of a reinforced squadron, those 1 or 2 birds have to be able to do multiple missions. When Navy helos deploy as a det they usually only have 1-3 primary missin areas. An HSL/HSM det does ASW and ASUW. HSC(nee HC) as either vertrep/log/pmc dets or L-class SAR dets. These dets will also usually be trained in another area like ASUW or SOF to provide support if needed by the fleet. Is SOF a SAR Det's primary role? No, their main job is to support the MEU by turning circles and returning wet harrier drivers to the boat. But they do have other abilities to provide to the ship in the event that the MEU can't support if they're ashore or otherwise unable. The only Navy squadron that has multiple missions across multiple primary mission areas is HS/HSC(cvw). The old HS had a very limited ASW responsibility (inner zone), SAR, and then ASUW/PR/SOF. They also deployed as a squadron so they had the experience of two O-5s, a bunch of DHs, a CAG rep, and then the JOs. That's a lot more depth then the 6 pilots of a L-class SAR det.

Vertrep is cool flying, but it's not some sort of secret inner circle secret. I could take any helo pilot and have them sideflaring within a few hours.

Zero. And what does it matter? This isn't WWII...

How many varsity level LLL inserts to a shitty, dusty, oh-my-christ-I-hope-I-don't-die LZs has a typical Navy HAC shot? We can measure dicks all day - but guess what, you can suck your own dicks about firing HFs and Torps, and realize that in the past decade of war, we've done our job more often than you have.

The past decade of war has been all dirt based. If we had been fighting an enemy that had a Navy of any size, then the Navy RW skillset would have been utilized a bit more. Just because our current crop of foes doesn't have a surface or sub-surface capability doesn't mean that we should truck out all of our birds and start conducting inserts.

And like I said earlier, let's not kid ourselves that any community has an inherently higher basic flying ability then the other. If I where to go to a USMC squadron of any flavor I could be doing your mission just as well as you in a few months to a year. With the right training I can dip with the best 60R guys or tow with the best HM bubbas. And the same for any USMC to USN. We all went through flight school together; the number of rockstars and plumbers seemed to be equally distributed amongst blue and green.

 

[KBayDog]

We all went through flight school together; the number of rockstars and plumbers seemed to be equally distributed amongst blue and green.

Game, set, match.

Can we please end this embarrassing discussion?

 

[Praying4OCS]

Can we please end this embarrassing discussion?

Agree. This shit's getting ridiculous. Same team, same team.

 

[bert]

...

And like I said earlier, let's not kid ourselves that any community has an inherently higher basic flying ability then the other. If I where to go to a USMC squadron of any flavor I could be doing your mission just as well as you in a few months to a year. With the right training I can dip with the best 60R guys or tow with the best HM bubbas. And the same for any USMC to USN. We all went through flight school together; the number of rockstars and plumbers seemed to be equally distributed amongst blue and green.

Yes, but we don't have the time or money or need to make you both a champion dipper and a champion sled tower (piss on that job with a -60, btw). We can easily create a detachment or squadron of M197 experts perfectly trained to defeat a small boat swarm. But we won't, because it would be expensive and I doubt that anybody who matters will see a need for anything more than minimum proficiency with it anytime soon (if it makes it to the Fleet in any significant numbers at all, which I currently doubt).

 

[revan1013]

We all went through flight school together; the number of rockstars and plumbers seemed to be equally distributed amongst blue and green.

About to wing. This is a perennial truth.

 

[KBayDog]

About to wing. This is a perennial truth.

 

[phrogdriver]

Is it just me, or does trying to hit a speedboat, much less a swarm (or hive/school/plethora/herd/gang/flight/rookery/litter/flock/cheche) of speedboats with a fixed-forward gun, from a helo sound really hard? Something that would require a ton of practice to do at all, much less well? It does sound like the best real-life video game ever, just not a particularly worthwhile thing.

 

[Jim123]

much less a swarm (or hive/school/plethora/herd/gang/flight/rookery/litter/flock/cheche)

0:30

So many great lines!

 

[bert]

Is it just me, or does trying to hit a speedboat, much less a swarm (or hive/school/plethora/herd/gang/flight/rookery/litter/flock/cheche) of speedboats with a fixed-forward gun, from a helo sound really hard? Something that would require a ton of practice to do at all, much less well? It does sound like the best real-life video game ever, just not a particularly worthwhile thing.

Should be easy - you can just practice training your eye for it while you are turning for upwind in the 'D.

 

[eas7888]

0:30

So many great lines!

It's not quite Blazing Saddles, but it's pretty f'n close.

 

[Lawman]

Is it just me, or does trying to hit a speedboat, much less a swarm (or hive/school/plethora/herd/gang/flight/rookery/litter/flock/cheche) of speedboats with a fixed-forward gun, from a helo sound really hard? Something that would require a ton of practice to do at all, much less well? It does sound like the best real-life video game ever, just not a particularly worthwhile thing.

I've been near screaming that for the last two pages but what do I know I'm just a gunship pilot trained to do it. Take a look at that pavehawk gunnery circle jerk video and look at the fixed forward shots. Their beating zone is a football field and a half and they are shooting from 1500 meters tops. I'm saying this subjectively and not as a jab but if you think hats impressive don't quit your day job.

Even when gunship just ment a Huey with guns bolted too it and some rockets, all those guys did was fly that mission. And gun platoons picked and chose who they had, the fodder went to the assault platoons in the CAV. It wasn't one of three dozen skill sets they fit into their ATM.

 

[revan1013]

Perennial = Persistent, repeating.



Awesome movie though.